@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Yes I saw what you saw about the Oceanside women. You've written it several times already. I didn't say that they were helpless. I just feel sorry for them. And rightfully so. They were victimized. All their men were murdered! Shall I repeat? Murdered. If they wanna kill anyone who comes into their community then they can do that with their guns. Their guns. Stealing is stealing. And now they're helpless without their guns just like Rick and his group were helpless when Negan stole their guns. Shall I repeat?

So is it okay for someone to beat their kids because they were beaten as kids? It's the same logic. They were victimized, so killing anyone unfortunate enough to enter their domain is okay. They're living in a world where pretty much everyone has seen the worst kind of shit, lost everyone and everything they cared about, they're hardly alone in being traumatized. The woman who runs the place still has a good sized chunk of her family with her, which makes her more fortunate than 99% of the survivors out there. The selfish decision to treat outsiders like their lives have no value is impossible to justify. They deserve to have their guns taken away. At least the poor saps who find their camp have a chance to run. They'll be fine until the war with the Saviors is over.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What does child abuse have to do with anything?

@LadyGigi said:

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Yes I saw what you saw about the Oceanside women. You've written it several times already. I didn't say that they were helpless. I just feel sorry for them. And rightfully so. They were victimized. All their men were murdered! Shall I repeat? Murdered. If they wanna kill anyone who comes into their community then they can do that with their guns. Their guns. Stealing is stealing. And now they're helpless without their guns just like Rick and his group were helpless when Negan stole their guns. Shall I repeat?

So is it okay for someone to beat their kids because they were beaten as kids? It's the same logic. They were victimized, so killing anyone unfortunate enough to enter their domain is okay. They're living in a world where pretty much everyone has seen the worst kind of shit, lost everyone and everything they cared about, they're hardly alone in being traumatized. The woman who runs the place still has a good sized chunk of her family with her, which makes her more fortunate than 99% of the survivors out there. The selfish decision to treat outsiders like their lives have no value is impossible to justify. They deserve to have their guns taken away. At least the poor saps who find their camp have a chance to run. They'll be fine until the war with the Saviors is over.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What does child abuse have to do with anything?

It's the same logic. I was abused, therefore my abuse is justified.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said:

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Yes I saw what you saw about the Oceanside women. You've written it several times already. I didn't say that they were helpless. I just feel sorry for them. And rightfully so. They were victimized. All their men were murdered! Shall I repeat? Murdered. If they wanna kill anyone who comes into their community then they can do that with their guns. Their guns. Stealing is stealing. And now they're helpless without their guns just like Rick and his group were helpless when Negan stole their guns. Shall I repeat?

So is it okay for someone to beat their kids because they were beaten as kids? It's the same logic. They were victimized, so killing anyone unfortunate enough to enter their domain is okay. They're living in a world where pretty much everyone has seen the worst kind of shit, lost everyone and everything they cared about, they're hardly alone in being traumatized. The woman who runs the place still has a good sized chunk of her family with her, which makes her more fortunate than 99% of the survivors out there. The selfish decision to treat outsiders like their lives have no value is impossible to justify. They deserve to have their guns taken away. At least the poor saps who find their camp have a chance to run. They'll be fine until the war with the Saviors is over.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What does child abuse have to do with anything?

It's the same logic. I was abused, therefore my abuse is justified.

I still don't understand how you presumed that from what I wrote.

@LadyGigi said: I still don't understand how you presumed that from what I wrote.

You're trying to excuse the actions of the Oceansiders based on what they've gone through. Well everyone else has gone through a lot too. In fact most others are worse off, it seems like the majority of people there have at least some surviving family with them. I mean, if Rick was like them the sign in front of the gate would say "Alexandria Safe Zone: If you're close enough to read this, kiss your ass goodbye!". They'd have sharpshooters up in the tower gunning down any living person in view right along with the walkers. Yet you compare Rick with Negan and talk about Oceanside like they're blameless downtrodden victims. Mind boggling.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: I still don't understand how you presumed that from what I wrote.

You're trying to excuse the actions of the Oceansiders based on what they've gone through. Well everyone else has gone through a lot too. In fact most others are worse off, it seems like the majority of people there have at least some surviving family with them. I mean, if Rick was like them the sign in front of the gate would say "Alexandria Safe Zone: If you're close enough to read this, kiss your ass goodbye!". They'd have sharpshooters up in the tower gunning down any living person in view right along with the walkers. Yet you compare Rick with Negan and talk about Oceanside like they're blameless downtrodden victims. Mind boggling.

I'm not even completely sure that what you said about Oceanside killing outsiders on the spot as being true. I'm pretty sure they weren't that way. But I'll have to re-watch that episode.

@LadyGigi said:

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: I still don't understand how you presumed that from what I wrote.

You're trying to excuse the actions of the Oceansiders based on what they've gone through. Well everyone else has gone through a lot too. In fact most others are worse off, it seems like the majority of people there have at least some surviving family with them. I mean, if Rick was like them the sign in front of the gate would say "Alexandria Safe Zone: If you're close enough to read this, kiss your ass goodbye!". They'd have sharpshooters up in the tower gunning down any living person in view right along with the walkers. Yet you compare Rick with Negan and talk about Oceanside like they're blameless downtrodden victims. Mind boggling.

I'm not even completely sure that what you said about Oceanside killing outsiders on the spot as being true. I'm pretty sure they weren't that way. But I'll have to re-watch that episode.

I've never seen a grown dude with such a huge hard on for Rick before. Wow.....

@TheShredder said: I've never seen a grown dude with such a huge hard on for Rick before. Wow.....

Always easier to insult someone who disagrees with you than actually refute their argument, especially when you can't. I understand. It's very frustrating.

@chrisjdel said:

@TheShredder said: I've never seen a grown dude with such a huge hard on for Rick before. Wow.....

Always easier to insult someone who disagrees with you than actually refute their argument, especially when you can't. I understand. It's very frustrating.

I've read your discussion and it seems like you're stuck on one thing and will never sway, no matter what arguments are presented. So yeah, I'm not getting it in with you. You're one of those guys who will never agree to just dis-a-fucking-gree.

@TheShredder said:

@chrisjdel said:

@TheShredder said: I've never seen a grown dude with such a huge hard on for Rick before. Wow.....

Always easier to insult someone who disagrees with you than actually refute their argument, especially when you can't. I understand. It's very frustrating.

I've read your discussion and it seems like you're stuck on one thing and will never sway, no matter what arguments are presented. So yeah, I'm not getting it in with you. You're one of those guys who will never agree to just dis-a-fucking-gree.

You haven't presented a single argument. You just keep stating I'm wrong over and over again, which is what people do when they have nothing. Comparing Rick's group to Negan's is so ridiculous that only someone who argues for the sake of arguing would advance the idea in the first place. But hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion. No matter how stupid it might be.

Oh for fucks sake, are you seriously trying to get me into an argument with you? Are you that bored? Because if so, I'll argue, but not about this. I've presented my piece and already stated that everyone in this world has blood on his hands. That's all that needs to be said. You can agree, or dis-a-fucking-gree, either way, I don't give a fuck.

@TheShredder said:

Oh for fucks sake, are you seriously trying to get me into an argument with you? Are you that bored? Because if so, I'll argue, but not about this. I've presented my piece and already stated that everyone in this world has blood on his hands. That's all that needs to be said. You can agree, or dis-a-fucking-gree, either way, I don't give a fuck.

There is no place in this thread where you ever presented "your piece". Piece of what? The only thing you've said is that if the show followed the Saviors we'd all be rooting for them instead, which is just plain idiotic. That's the closest you've come to actually saying anything. I love it when people tell you they're done arguing when they never even started. Again, a smoke blowing tactic used by people who have nothing.

@mrjacs said:

@TheShredder said:

@mrjacs said:

That outpost was filled with people who bashed their victims heads in and then took photos of it. If we had been following the Saviors, why on earth would Rick and his group be seen as bad guys? The saviors are sociopaths, for crying out loud. Until we see Rick killing an innocent person and taking a picture of it to hang on his wall then you have no point at all.

And you don't realize that this is based on a bias perception because we've been following Rick, not the Saviors. Had we been following the Saviors, you would be singing a different tune. That's what you guys aren't realizing.

I can't believe we're having this discussion. Negan's group consists of sociopaths. That wouldn't change had we been following them instead of Rick's group. Name one person out of Rick's group who tried to rape anybody? Name one from Rick's group that showed pedophile tendencies? By your logic, even Ted Bundy or Hitler would be good guys if we followed them like we follow Rick's group.

Don't be an idiot.

Have you ever watched the TV show, 'Vikings' on the History channel? In that show, we follow a group of Vikings, who travelled to unknown lands in search of plunder. And we root for these guys because...........wait for it............

THEY'RE THE PROTAGONISTS! Holy shit, what media can do to your perception, when you turn a group of vile, raping, lunatics into the "GOOD GUYS."

Anyone can be written as good guys. Sons of Anarchy. Breaking Bad. Vikings. The Shield. All these and more have the bad guys as the protagonists and the audience made EVERY excuse they could to defend their horrid actions.

@TheShredder said: Have you ever watched the TV show, 'Vikings' on the History channel? In that show, we follow a group of Vikings, who travelled to unknown lands in search of plunder. And we root for these guys because...........wait for it............

THEY'RE THE PROTAGONISTS! Holy shit, what media can do to your perception, when you turn a group of vile, raping, lunatics into the "GOOD GUYS."

Anyone can be written as good guys. Sons of Anarchy. Breaking Bad. Vikings. The Shield. All these and more have the bad guys as the protagonists and the audience made EVERY excuse they could to defend their horrid actions.

Bad guys can be very interesting characters. It's not quite the same though; maybe some of the audience gets caught up in the story and forgets, but that's different from actually believing they're good guys simply because the script is written from their point of view.

@chrisjdel said:

maybe some of the audience gets caught up in the story and forgets, but that's different from actually believing they're good guys simply because the script is written from their point of view.

Ironic you saying that, considering you can't let go of the fact that Rick has essentially become a bad guy.

@TheShredder said:

@chrisjdel said:

maybe some of the audience gets caught up in the story and forgets, but that's different from actually believing they're good guys simply because the script is written from their point of view.

Ironic you saying that, considering you can't let go of the fact that Rick has essentially become a bad guy.

Season 5 was Rick's low point, as far as taking a walk on the dark side. But even then he was never in the same class as Negan, or the Governor, or the Terminus people, etc. Not even close. It's been a major underlying theme of TWD from the very beginning. At what point do you cross over from being a good person who's done some bad things to a genuinely bad person? Various characters - Rick, Shane, Morgan, Carol, and others - have struggled with that question. I laid out some of the differences between Rick and the Alexandrians, and Negan and his Saviors, that put them on opposite sides of that line. If you could explain to me why those distinctions are really trivial (instead of very important like they seem) then maybe I'll concede you have a point. But right now, you're still just stating that I'm wrong and skipping past the part where you reason your way to that conclusion. And most of the time people do that because they have no rational argument to support their position.