@LadyGigi said:

@TheShredder said:

Dude, shoving your head in sand doesn't make the problem go away. You need to be objective, look at things without bias. That's what I'm trying to say. If you don't get it, don't respond. It just looks like you're trying to get the last word in.

I don't think he's trying to get the last word in. His argument is based upon how the writers want the audience to feel about the situatuion.

I think you just like to pick on alpha males. Chris is an alpha male on this board.

I don't know whether I've just been complimented or insulted. But I set out a whole bunch of very substantive reasons why the whole Rick-Negan comparison is bogus reasoning. Both resort to violence on occasion. That's about the only similarity. Everything else about their behavior is quite different. And given that Oceanside greets wandering travelers with a bullet in the head, they deserved to have their guns taken away. Not victims! No one has tried addressing any of what I've said, or explained why those (I would say) major and fundamental differences are actually trivial. When someone conspicuously refuses to discuss an issue long enough, instead choosing to just repeat over and over again that you're wrong, they've given you all the counterargument you need - by proving that they have none.

@LadyGigi said:

I don't think he's trying to get the last word in. His argument is based upon how the writers want the audience to feel about the situatuion.

I think you just like to pick on alpha males. Chris is an alpha male on this board.

That's because only I can be the Alpha of the board.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said:

@TheShredder said:

Dude, shoving your head in sand doesn't make the problem go away. You need to be objective, look at things without bias. That's what I'm trying to say. If you don't get it, don't respond. It just looks like you're trying to get the last word in.

I don't think he's trying to get the last word in. His argument is based upon how the writers want the audience to feel about the situatuion.

I think you just like to pick on alpha males. Chris is an alpha male on this board.

I don't know whether I've just been complimented or insulted. But I set out a whole bunch of very substantive reasons why the whole Rick-Negan comparison is bogus reasoning. Both resort to violence on occasion. That's about the only similarity. Everything else about their behavior is quite different. And given that Oceanside greets wandering travelers with a bullet in the head, they deserved to have their guns taken away. Not victims! No one has tried addressing any of what I've said, or explained why those (I would say) major and fundamental differences are actually trivial. When someone conspicuously refuses to discuss an issue long enough, instead choosing to just repeat over and over again that you're wrong, they've given you all the counterargument you need - by proving that they have none.

Fine. I could adress all the things wrong with what you've written and how you should probably think independently of what the writers want you to think. Are you ready for that?

Btw, I was trying to compliment you without being challenging. But I could challenge what you wrote if that's what you need.

@LadyGigi said: Fine. I could adress all the things wrong with what you've written and how you should probably think independently of what the writers want you to think. Are you ready for that?

Btw, I was trying to compliment you without being challenging. But I could challenge what you wrote if that's what you need.

Yes, I'd like to know why the very different behavior patterns of the two men make zero difference in your opinion.

I'll be the first one to acknowledge Rick and his friends have done some pretty brutal stuff. Like when Rick strangled that claimer guy in the bathroom, before he knew very much about them, or when he hit officer Bob with his own cruiser and then told him "You can't go back Bob" before shooting him (an obvious reference to Gareth, who said the same thing to Sasha's Bob at Terminus). Most of the cast would be serving very long prison sentences if law and order still existed. Carl included, for shooting that Woodbury kid even after he surrendered and lowered his weapon. And Rick has shown a certain amount of mental instability too. Seeing Lori all dressed in white, getting phone calls on a dead line, etc. He tends to hit overload and check out for a while, every so often. Michonne or even Carl would probably make better leaders because they have it together more consistently.

None of that puts them in the same league as Negan, or even the Oceansiders. They don't execute people just for showing up at their gates. They don't take over other communities, or kill all their men (preteens included), or bash peoples' skulls in as a terror tactic. There's no slave labor in Alexandria. Rick doesn't have his own harem. He doesn't use the town's church to deliver speeches and make everyone kneel in the pews while they listen, like he's the messiah. There's no walker moat around Alexandria filled with the corpses of people who pissed him off. He doesn't burn anyone - or crucify them, or feed them to walkers, or something equally melodramatic - to scare the shit out of his people and keep them in line. There's a big difference between those who try to hold onto civilized behavior as much as possible, and those who have fully embraced the darkness. There may not be a lot of innocent people in this world but there are still good ones and bad ones.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Fine. I could adress all the things wrong with what you've written and how you should probably think independently of what the writers want you to think. Are you ready for that?

Btw, I was trying to compliment you without being challenging. But I could challenge what you wrote if that's what you need.

Yes, I'd like to know why the very different behavior patterns of the two men make zero difference in your opinion.

I'll be the first one to acknowledge Rick and his friends have done some pretty brutal stuff. Like when Rick strangled that claimer guy in the bathroom, before he knew very much about them, or when he hit officer Bob with his own cruiser and then told him "You can't go back Bob" before shooting him (an obvious reference to Gareth, who said the same thing to Sasha's Bob at Terminus). Most of the cast would be serving very long prison sentences if law and order still existed. Carl included, for shooting that Woodbury kid even after he surrendered and lowered his weapon. And Rick has shown a certain amount of mental instability too. Seeing Lori all dressed in white, getting phone calls on a dead line, etc. He tends to hit overload and check out for a while, every so often. Michonne or even Carl would probably make better leaders because they have it together more consistently.

None of that puts them in the same league as Negan, or even the Oceansiders. They don't execute people just for showing up at their gates. They don't take over other communities, or kill all their men (preteens included), or bash peoples' skulls in as a terror tactic. There's no slave labor in Alexandria. Rick doesn't have his own harem. He doesn't use the town's church to deliver speeches and make everyone kneel in the pews while they listen, like he's the messiah. There's no walker moat around Alexandria filled with the corpses of people who pissed him off. He doesn't burn anyone - or crucify them, or feed them to walkers, or something equally melodramatic - to scare the shit out of his people and keep them in line. There's a big difference between those who try to hold onto civilized behavior as much as possible, and those who have fully embraced the darkness. There may not be a lot of innocent people in this world but there are still good ones and bad ones.

Rick isn't even a real person so what kind of foolish question is that?

Yes, almost everyone who's still alive in the world of TWD has done some bad shit to survive. But not everyone is equally ruthless and indiscriminate about it. They already knew from their run-in with those Saviors on the road that these guys were bullies who would kill someone just to prove a point. At Hilltop they beat a 16 year old boy to death to intimidate the rest of them into submission. And when they went into the satellite station, the wall was covered with polaroids of smashed and mutilated bodies, the ones in each corner of the rooms presumably being the handiwork of the Savior who slept there. The idea was to go in and take them out with minimal (preferably no) casualties on the Alexandrian side. The predators became prey. Cry me a river of tears.

Rick is a bully who leads a group of bad ass bandits. From when Rick joined Shane's community while in Atlantic, Rick has been bullying just about everyone he has come in contact with. He handcuffed Merle to the roof causing Merle to have to chop off his own hand to escape from being eaten by the zombies breaking through the door. Season two, Rick basically took over the farm against Hershel's wishes. And took over the the group from Shane. Yes Hershel gave up his will but what else was the old man supposed to do? Season three, Rick took over the prison from the prison inmates living there. Season six, Rick basically took over Alexandria by starting drama and chaos.

This is what really gets me about Oceanside. They are NOT a bunch of poor defenseless women being victimized by evil Rick. The Alexandria/Hilltop party showed them a lot more mercy than they've shown others. No one died. Rick and company have never killed a random person just because. And they've shown remarkable tolerance even of those whose behavior threatened them. They didn't kill Father Gabriel; though he was more of a burden than an asset they took him all the way to Alexandria, and he showed his gratitude by betraying them, but they still gave him another chance. Look what happened when they met Jesus. He was a persistent pain in the ass who kept trying to steal their supplies. Those supplies (including badly needed food) wound up at the bottom of a lake thanks to him. They had two chances to just shoot this prick, but they took him back for medical attention despite all he'd done.

Now you're just making excuses for Rick.

Oceanside is inhabited by poor defenseless women. These are women who have lost all their men by the hands of Negan. They have learned to toughen up and horde their firearms, but they aren't a group of toughen Amazon chicks. They can handle someone like Tara because Tara is basically a wimp. They can handle a few wayward zombies in the area, but they are not equip with an army to defend their territory like the other advanced communities, Alexandria, The Sanctuary or The Kingdom.

No, Rick isn't a psychopath like Negan, but he does expect his followers to fall into line and think just like him or he will quickly exiled them like he did with Carol. Or abandon their needs like he did with most of the original members of Alexandria.

Father Gabriel knew what kind of person Rick was and tried to warn Deanna. How is that betrayal? Did you forget that Rick took over Gabriel's church? And as payment for saving his life, Rick made Gabriel take them to town to scavenge for canned goods which resulted in Bob being bitten. I'm still angry with Rick for that. Sasha should be as well. I think debt was paid. Nobody in Rick's group is completely defenseless except for baby Judith of course. Everyone is expected to use or develop a skill to help the group. So, Father Gabriel isn't dead weight. Those people need religion otherwise they end up becoming savages.

You may be right about Jesus. That was a really stupid introduction to that character. It doesn't happen that way in the comic at all. In the comic, I think Jesus approaches the community to let them know about the Hilltop.

As I've pointed out before there is no structure, no government, no police to call. There are circumstances where you have to kill. Not just the traditional self defense but to stop someone who's certain to come back and make you pay if you let them go. This world requires you to be ice cold at times. But to compare Rick to Negan? Even back at the end of season 2 (this isn't a democracy anymore!) Rick never demanded that anyone kneel in his presence. He didn't set up a personal fiefdom at the prison during season 4 and make other guys' wives marry him, or create a serf class to do all the scut work for nothing more than his generous protection. Alexandria has never raided other communities for supplies or demanded tributes from them. And Dwight is the only guy in town at the moment with a burned face. Rick and the other Alexandrians can be hardasses when the situation calls for it but they're still the good guys.

Yes I understand that everybody has to kill someone at least by self-defense. That's not the issue. The issue is that Rick is a fucking stupid bully and runs his community kind of like Negan does. Rick may not use the exact same tactics, but Rick does expect for his followers to think just like him. The only person who doesn't is Michonne. Michonne has a different perspective about how to lead the group. They should let Michonne be in charge. lol

No. Oceanside kills anyone who happens to blunder into them. Calling them a bunch of poor defenseless women totally ignores the fact that they murder random strangers (something Rick's group has never done). And they pretty much are tough Amazon chicks. Most of them can fight very well, even Tara's little buddy who must be 12 or 13 was shown taking down a walker with her Rambo knife.

Clearly you just don't like Rick, for whatever reason. He certainly didn't plan to leave Merle behind on that rooftop. And he never took over Hershel's farm; Hershel got knocked back on his heels by Shane's little demonstration, when he realized Rick was right and his wife had been dead for months. It took time for him to recover. At no point did Rick take over. In fact, unlike Shane he wasn't willing to just bust open the barn and kill all the walkers with or without Hershel's permission. Carol he sent away because she killed two people at the prison. He later regretted that choice, feeling that Carol had done what needed doing while he had been too soft to see it. Which doesn't exactly back up the idea of evil Rick. Of course he made Gabriel take them to the food bank - they were out of food! Had Gabriel been a little more forthcoming he wouldn't have been regarded with such suspicion, but he was a shifty guy who was clearly hiding something. Turned out it had nothing to do with them or current circumstances. But I wouldn't have trusted him either.

Yes, Rick did react to how naive the people of Alexandria were by saying he was ready to take over whether they liked it or not, should the need arise. Even if that meant some of them had to die. But as the Wolves' attack showed, he wasn't wrong about how unprepared they were to deal with the outside world. Nor was he wrong about Pete. The man was going to kill someone sooner or later. Had Rick's group never arrived it would've been Jessie instead of Reg. Sometimes you do need to kill people like Pete or Gregory, who pose a danger to the community but aren't currently in the midst of physically attacking you. Rick hasn't always made the best decisions - but what do you think he should've done differently? He sure as hell doesn't run Alexandria anything like the way Negan runs the Sanctuary. I'm sorry if your irrational dislike of the character keeps you from seeing that.

@chrisjdel said:

No. Oceanside kills anyone who happens to blunder into them. Calling them a bunch of poor defenseless women totally ignores the fact that they murder random strangers (something Rick's group has never done). And they pretty much are tough Amazon chicks. Most of them can fight very well, even Tara's little buddy who must be 12 or 13 was shown taking down a walker with her Rambo knife.

Clearly you just don't like Rick, for whatever reason. He certainly didn't plan to leave Merle behind on that rooftop. And he never took over Hershel's farm; Hershel got knocked back on his heels by Shane's little demonstration, when he realized Rick was right and his wife had been dead for months. It took time for him to recover. At no point did Rick take over. In fact, unlike Shane he wasn't willing to just bust open the barn and kill all the walkers with or without Hershel's permission. Carol he sent away because she killed two people at the prison. He later regretted that choice, feeling that Carol had done what needed doing while he had been too soft to see it. Which doesn't exactly back up the idea of evil Rick. Of course he made Gabriel take them to the food bank - they were out of food! Had Gabriel been a little more forthcoming he wouldn't have been regarded with such suspicion, but he was a shifty guy who was clearly hiding something. Turned out it had nothing to do with them or current circumstances. But I wouldn't have trusted him either.

Yes, Rick did react to how naive the people of Alexandria were by saying he was ready to take over whether they liked it or not, should the need arise. Even if that meant some of them had to die. But as the Wolves' attack showed, he wasn't wrong about how unprepared they were to deal with the outside world. Nor was he wrong about Pete. The man was going to kill someone sooner or later. Had Rick's group never arrived it would've been Jessie instead of Reg. Sometimes you do need to kill people like Pete or Gregory, who pose a danger to the community but aren't currently in the midst of physically attacking you. Rick hasn't always made the best decisions - but what do you think he should've done differently? He sure as hell doesn't run Alexandria anything like the way Negan runs the Sanctuary. I'm sorry if your irrational dislike of the character keeps you from seeing that.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But I like to think that I'm more enlightened about the flaws of how they've written Rick. Rick is not just a flawed character. The writing flaws him. Why you think that Rick didn't mean to leave Merle on that roof is beyond me because anyone with half a brain would anticipate that T-Dogg just may not unlock the cuff of the guy who saying racist things to him. The writers just so happen to make it that T-Dogg accidently drops the keys down the drain but that doesn't excuse Rick from creating the situation by trying to be a bigger bully than Merle. That's all that was about. Rick is no HERO. Okay? That's what you failed to realise. Rick is a bad guy. He's a bully. And when he cannot bully his way verbally, he resorts to violence. His negotiation skills such so bad. Good guys negotiate rather than using force. Ever heard the expression, the pen is mightier than the sword? Eventually Rick won't be able to bully his way out of a situation. It's a shame that those poor Oceanside women got their guns forcefully STOLEN from them. How exactly can you justify THEFT? Rick was a COP. And totally okay with stealing from helpless women. Yet, negotiating with crazy untrustworthy trash people. Rick could have easily negotiated with those Oceanside women for their help in defeating Negan. He barely tried because he knew that it would be easier to subdue them.

Sure there is no government, but you can't just go around stealing other people's stuff especially from helpless women who have already been victimized by men. Before there were laws, people still considered theft, theft. Some societies would cut the hand off the thief.

@LadyGigi said:

@chrisjdel said:

No. Oceanside kills anyone who happens to blunder into them. Calling them a bunch of poor defenseless women totally ignores the fact that they murder random strangers (something Rick's group has never done). And they pretty much are tough Amazon chicks. Most of them can fight very well, even Tara's little buddy who must be 12 or 13 was shown taking down a walker with her Rambo knife.

Clearly you just don't like Rick, for whatever reason. He certainly didn't plan to leave Merle behind on that rooftop. And he never took over Hershel's farm; Hershel got knocked back on his heels by Shane's little demonstration, when he realized Rick was right and his wife had been dead for months. It took time for him to recover. At no point did Rick take over. In fact, unlike Shane he wasn't willing to just bust open the barn and kill all the walkers with or without Hershel's permission. Carol he sent away because she killed two people at the prison. He later regretted that choice, feeling that Carol had done what needed doing while he had been too soft to see it. Which doesn't exactly back up the idea of evil Rick. Of course he made Gabriel take them to the food bank - they were out of food! Had Gabriel been a little more forthcoming he wouldn't have been regarded with such suspicion, but he was a shifty guy who was clearly hiding something. Turned out it had nothing to do with them or current circumstances. But I wouldn't have trusted him either.

Yes, Rick did react to how naive the people of Alexandria were by saying he was ready to take over whether they liked it or not, should the need arise. Even if that meant some of them had to die. But as the Wolves' attack showed, he wasn't wrong about how unprepared they were to deal with the outside world. Nor was he wrong about Pete. The man was going to kill someone sooner or later. Had Rick's group never arrived it would've been Jessie instead of Reg. Sometimes you do need to kill people like Pete or Gregory, who pose a danger to the community but aren't currently in the midst of physically attacking you. Rick hasn't always made the best decisions - but what do you think he should've done differently? He sure as hell doesn't run Alexandria anything like the way Negan runs the Sanctuary. I'm sorry if your irrational dislike of the character keeps you from seeing that.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But I like to think that I'm more enlightened about the flaws of how they've written Rick. Rick is not just a flawed character. The writing flaws him. Why you think that Rick didn't mean to leave Merle on that roof is beyond me because anyone with half a brain would anticipate that T-Dogg just may not unlock the cuff of the guy who saying racist things to him. The writers just so happen to make it that T-Dogg accidently drops the keys down the drain but that doesn't excuse Rick from creating the situation by trying to be a bigger bully than Merle. That's all that was about. Rick is no HERO. Okay? That's what you failed to realise. Rick is a bad guy. He's a bully. And when he cannot bully his way verbally, he resorts to violence. His negotiation skills such so bad. Good guys negotiate rather than using force. Ever heard the expression, the pen is mightier than the sword? Eventually Rick won't be able to bully his way out of a situation. It's a shame that those poor Oceanside women got their guns forcefully STOLEN from them. How exactly can you justify THEFT? He's a COP. Sure there is no government, but you can't just go around stealing other people's stuff especially from helpless women who have already been victimized by men.

Didn't you hear anything I said about the Oceansiders? They're anything but helpless. If you're a survivor wandering through the woods looking for a safe place to spend the night, and happen to stumble into their camp, hi there stranger - welcome to Oceanside ... boom! Your brains get splattered all over the ground. They were shown a lot more mercy by the Alexandrians and Hilltoppers than they routinely show others. And not only can most of those women fight, they're training the kids to fight too. Rather effectively. You and I have very different definitions of the word helpless.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said:

@chrisjdel said:

No. Oceanside kills anyone who happens to blunder into them. Calling them a bunch of poor defenseless women totally ignores the fact that they murder random strangers (something Rick's group has never done). And they pretty much are tough Amazon chicks. Most of them can fight very well, even Tara's little buddy who must be 12 or 13 was shown taking down a walker with her Rambo knife.

Clearly you just don't like Rick, for whatever reason. He certainly didn't plan to leave Merle behind on that rooftop. And he never took over Hershel's farm; Hershel got knocked back on his heels by Shane's little demonstration, when he realized Rick was right and his wife had been dead for months. It took time for him to recover. At no point did Rick take over. In fact, unlike Shane he wasn't willing to just bust open the barn and kill all the walkers with or without Hershel's permission. Carol he sent away because she killed two people at the prison. He later regretted that choice, feeling that Carol had done what needed doing while he had been too soft to see it. Which doesn't exactly back up the idea of evil Rick. Of course he made Gabriel take them to the food bank - they were out of food! Had Gabriel been a little more forthcoming he wouldn't have been regarded with such suspicion, but he was a shifty guy who was clearly hiding something. Turned out it had nothing to do with them or current circumstances. But I wouldn't have trusted him either.

Yes, Rick did react to how naive the people of Alexandria were by saying he was ready to take over whether they liked it or not, should the need arise. Even if that meant some of them had to die. But as the Wolves' attack showed, he wasn't wrong about how unprepared they were to deal with the outside world. Nor was he wrong about Pete. The man was going to kill someone sooner or later. Had Rick's group never arrived it would've been Jessie instead of Reg. Sometimes you do need to kill people like Pete or Gregory, who pose a danger to the community but aren't currently in the midst of physically attacking you. Rick hasn't always made the best decisions - but what do you think he should've done differently? He sure as hell doesn't run Alexandria anything like the way Negan runs the Sanctuary. I'm sorry if your irrational dislike of the character keeps you from seeing that.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But I like to think that I'm more enlightened about the flaws of how they've written Rick. Rick is not just a flawed character. The writing flaws him. Why you think that Rick didn't mean to leave Merle on that roof is beyond me because anyone with half a brain would anticipate that T-Dogg just may not unlock the cuff of the guy who saying racist things to him. The writers just so happen to make it that T-Dogg accidently drops the keys down the drain but that doesn't excuse Rick from creating the situation by trying to be a bigger bully than Merle. That's all that was about. Rick is no HERO. Okay? That's what you failed to realise. Rick is a bad guy. He's a bully. And when he cannot bully his way verbally, he resorts to violence. His negotiation skills such so bad. Good guys negotiate rather than using force. Ever heard the expression, the pen is mightier than the sword? Eventually Rick won't be able to bully his way out of a situation. It's a shame that those poor Oceanside women got their guns forcefully STOLEN from them. How exactly can you justify THEFT? He's a COP. Sure there is no government, but you can't just go around stealing other people's stuff especially from helpless women who have already been victimized by men.

Didn't you hear anything I said about the Oceansiders? They're anything but helpless. If you're a survivor wandering through the woods looking for a safe place to spend the night, and happen to stumble into their camp, hi there stranger - welcome to Oceanside ... boom! Your brains get splattered all over the ground. They were shown a lot more mercy by the Alexandrians and Hilltoppers than they routinely show others. And not only can most of those women fight, they're training the kids to fight too. Rather effectively. You and I have very different definitions of the word helpless.

Yes I saw what you saw about the Oceanside women. You've written it several times already. I didn't say that they were helpless. I just feel sorry for them. And rightfully so. They were victimized. All their men were murdered! Shall I repeat? Murdered. If they wanna kill anyone who comes into their community then they can do that with their guns. Their guns. Stealing is stealing. And now they're helpless without their guns just like Rick and his group were helpless when Negan stole their guns. Shall I repeat?

@TheShredder said:

@mrjacs said:

That outpost was filled with people who bashed their victims heads in and then took photos of it. If we had been following the Saviors, why on earth would Rick and his group be seen as bad guys? The saviors are sociopaths, for crying out loud. Until we see Rick killing an innocent person and taking a picture of it to hang on his wall then you have no point at all.

And you don't realize that this is based on a bias perception because we've been following Rick, not the Saviors. Had we been following the Saviors, you would be singing a different tune. That's what you guys aren't realizing.

I can't believe we're having this discussion. Negan's group consists of sociopaths. That wouldn't change had we been following them instead of Rick's group. Name one person out of Rick's group who tried to rape anybody? Name one from Rick's group that showed pedophile tendencies? By your logic, even Ted Bundy or Hitler would be good guys if we followed them like we follow Rick's group.

Don't be an idiot.

@LadyGigi said: Yes I saw what you saw about the Oceanside women. You've written it several times already. I didn't say that they were helpless. I just feel sorry for them. And rightfully so. They were victimized. All their men were murdered! Shall I repeat? Murdered. If they wanna kill anyone who comes into their community then they can do that with their guns. Their guns. Stealing is stealing. And now they're helpless without their guns just like Rick and his group were helpless when Negan stole their guns. Shall I repeat?

So is it okay for someone to beat their kids because they were beaten as kids? It's the same logic. They were victimized, so killing anyone unfortunate enough to enter their domain is okay. They're living in a world where pretty much everyone has seen the worst kind of shit, lost everyone and everything they cared about, they're hardly alone in being traumatized. The woman who runs the place still has a good sized chunk of her family with her, which makes her more fortunate than 99% of the survivors out there. The selfish decision to treat outsiders like their lives have no value is impossible to justify. They deserve to have their guns taken away. At least the poor saps who find their camp have a chance to run now. They'll be fine until the war with the Saviors is over.

@mrjacs said:

@TheShredder said:

@mrjacs said:

That outpost was filled with people who bashed their victims heads in and then took photos of it. If we had been following the Saviors, why on earth would Rick and his group be seen as bad guys? The saviors are sociopaths, for crying out loud. Until we see Rick killing an innocent person and taking a picture of it to hang on his wall then you have no point at all.

And you don't realize that this is based on a bias perception because we've been following Rick, not the Saviors. Had we been following the Saviors, you would be singing a different tune. That's what you guys aren't realizing.

I can't believe we're having this discussion. Negan's group consists of sociopaths. That wouldn't change had we been following them instead of Rick's group. Name one person out of Rick's group who tried to rape anybody? Name one from Rick's group that showed pedophile tendencies? By your logic, even Ted Bundy or Hitler would be good guys if we followed them like we follow Rick's group.

Don't be an idiot.

I can't decide if LadyGigi is being serious with her argument or not. Some people would continue to act like civilized human beings even with no one around to force them. Other people need laws, and police, and courts, and prisons to make them behave; without those things the first thought they have is, I can do whatever I want! Rick's group is clearly the former while Negan and his Saviors are the latter. It's hard to understand why anyone needs that explained to them. Yes, in a violent world you may have to do violent things. That doesn't necessarily make you the bad guy.

@mrjacs said:

@TheShredder said:

@mrjacs said:

That outpost was filled with people who bashed their victims heads in and then took photos of it. If we had been following the Saviors, why on earth would Rick and his group be seen as bad guys? The saviors are sociopaths, for crying out loud. Until we see Rick killing an innocent person and taking a picture of it to hang on his wall then you have no point at all.

And you don't realize that this is based on a bias perception because we've been following Rick, not the Saviors. Had we been following the Saviors, you would be singing a different tune. That's what you guys aren't realizing.

I can't believe we're having this discussion. Negan's group consists of sociopaths. That wouldn't change had we been following them instead of Rick's group. Name one person out of Rick's group who tried to rape anybody? Name one from Rick's group that showed pedophile tendencies? By your logic, even Ted Bundy or Hitler would be good guys if we followed them like we follow Rick's group.

Don't be an idiot.

Not everyone is Negan's camp are sociopaths. I'm not just talking about Eugene either. Most of Negan's camp are regular people who were forced to follow Negan's orders. But those people are cynical.

And for all we know at that outpost, Negan was probably the one who put those polaroid photos iof Lucille's victims as a reminder of what could happen if anyone of them thought about double crossing Negan.

@LadyGigi said:

@mrjacs said:

@TheShredder said:

@mrjacs said:

That outpost was filled with people who bashed their victims heads in and then took photos of it. If we had been following the Saviors, why on earth would Rick and his group be seen as bad guys? The saviors are sociopaths, for crying out loud. Until we see Rick killing an innocent person and taking a picture of it to hang on his wall then you have no point at all.

And you don't realize that this is based on a bias perception because we've been following Rick, not the Saviors. Had we been following the Saviors, you would be singing a different tune. That's what you guys aren't realizing.

I can't believe we're having this discussion. Negan's group consists of sociopaths. That wouldn't change had we been following them instead of Rick's group. Name one person out of Rick's group who tried to rape anybody? Name one from Rick's group that showed pedophile tendencies? By your logic, even Ted Bundy or Hitler would be good guys if we followed them like we follow Rick's group.

Don't be an idiot.

Not everyone is Negan's camp are sociopaths. I'm not just talking about Eugene either. Most of Negan's camp are regular people who were forced to follow Negan's orders. Those people are cynical. For all we know Negan was probably the one who put those polaroid photos of Lucille's victims as a reminder of what could happen if anyone of them thought about double crossing Negan.

There were a bunch of them in every Savior's area. It almost looks like they might've been competing with each other for the biggest and goriest collection. In all likelihood each one was a personal kill of the Savior who owned the picture.

@TheShredder said:

@LadyGigi said:

I don't think he's trying to get the last word in. His argument is based upon how the writers want the audience to feel about the situatuion.

I think you just like to pick on alpha males. Chris is an alpha male on this board.

That's because only I can be the Alpha of the board.

Yeah babe. You're so hot. Half the time I'm fighting to resist your temptation.