@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

Ansari was pressing hard, no doubt. He wanted it, and played the "game" that men have been spoon-fed forever - if you keep trying, eventually she will give in. That's the REAL "tale as old as time"! But, I can't help but feel that "Grace" was trying to get what she wanted, too, which I believe was a sweet, romantic date with a celebrity that she was attracted to.

The part about her sitting down in front of him and secretly hoping that he would try to "calm her down" by "giving her a massage or playing with her hair" - WHAT? Girl, what were you thinking? The minute you got back to his apartment and you let him undress you and perform a sex act on you while sitting on his kitchen counter should have informed you that this was not going to be a night of snuggling on the couch while watching tv. It's not easy to undress someone even if they want it or are actively helping, so there was no way she got naked unless she allowed it. Of course, getting naked with a man does not mean he has carte-blanche to do whatever he wants, regardless of what the girl wants.

I agree that we need more education in the schools, and one thing this whole sordid story has done is open up a dialogue about the importance of communication between people. Men, read the room, listen to what your partner is saying, observe how they are behaving - if you aren't sure, STOP and ASK. Women, protect yourself and don't get yourself in situations that could be dangerous. Verbalize your feelings, forcefully if necessary.

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

I think it's time for someone to come up with "an app for this". That way parties can consent- swipe each other before any getting-busy gets started.

---

NOTE: Yes, I’m kidding; but, I’m not making light of a very serious situation. I'm just emphasizing that in some instances there is NO WAY to clear-murky-waters when two people have different what-I-said/ what-I-meant/what-I-heard versions of the same "conversation".

I know you were kidding, but in fact most people I know have an - to me, anyway - inexplicably difficult time keeping their phones charged and working. If they had to rely on them for keeping a "sexual consent log" they probably wouldn't get any action at all.

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

I think it's time for someone to come up with "an app for this". That way parties can consent- swipe each other before any getting-busy gets started.

---

NOTE: Yes, I’m kidding; but, I’m not making light of a very serious situation. I'm just emphasizing that in some instances there is NO WAY to clear-murky-waters when two people have different what-I-said/ what-I-meant/what-I-heard versions of the same "conversation".

That's not going to fix the problem for several reasons. First, there have been instances of consent being rescinded after the fact. Also , it's extremely difficult to prove that consent wasn't coerced or given out of fear.

The real issue is the legal ambiguity of the terms" consent" and " coerce". This woman, Grace claims she gave nonverbal cues that she wasn't comfortable and her consent wasn't "enthusiastic" which is impossible for anyone outside the room to prove or disprove .

No app or preemptive contract between parties could fix that.

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

Ansari was pressing hard, no doubt. He wanted it, and played the "game" that men have been spoon-fed forever - if you keep trying, eventually she will give in. That's the REAL "tale as old as time"! But, I can't help but feel that "Grace" was trying to get what she wanted, too, which I believe was a sweet, romantic date with a celebrity that she was attracted to.

The part about her sitting down in front of him and secretly hoping that he would try to "calm her down" by "giving her a massage or playing with her hair" - WHAT? Girl, what were you thinking? The minute you got back to his apartment and you let him undress you and perform a sex act on you while sitting on his kitchen counter should have informed you that this was not going to be a night of snuggling on the couch while watching tv. It's not easy to undress someone even if they want it or are actively helping, so there was no way she got naked unless she allowed it. Of course, getting naked with a man does not mean he has carte-blanche to do whatever he wants, regardless of what the girl wants.

I agree that we need more education in the schools, and one thing this whole sordid story has done is open up a dialogue about the importance of communication between people. Men, read the room, listen to what your partner is saying, observe how they are behaving - if you aren't sure, STOP and ASK. Women, protect yourself and don't get yourself in situations that could be dangerous. Verbalize your feelings, forcefully if necessary.

Agree with everything you said. It boils down to poor communication by both parties involved.

One thing I'll add to your point about persistence is that persistence only works when the person is into you. Based on her account I don't think she into him very much at all, his over-eagerness completely turned her off.

Also, based on what she admits she did with him no rational person would say she expected a night of snuggling only.

He played "the game" but his issue is he has none, and it came back to bite him. And for ' Grace ' it's easier to point the finger at him than admit she can't communicate and chalk it up to that.

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

Ansari was pressing hard, no doubt. He wanted it, and played the "game" that men have been spoon-fed forever - if you keep trying, eventually she will give in. That's the REAL "tale as old as time"! But, I can't help but feel that "Grace" was trying to get what she wanted, too, which I believe was a sweet, romantic date with a celebrity that she was attracted to.

The part about her sitting down in front of him and secretly hoping that he would try to "calm her down" by "giving her a massage or playing with her hair" - WHAT? Girl, what were you thinking? The minute you got back to his apartment and you let him undress you and perform a sex act on you while sitting on his kitchen counter should have informed you that this was not going to be a night of snuggling on the couch while watching tv. It's not easy to undress someone even if they want it or are actively helping, so there was no way she got naked unless she allowed it. Of course, getting naked with a man does not mean he has carte-blanche to do whatever he wants, regardless of what the girl wants.

I agree that we need more education in the schools, and one thing this whole sordid story has done is open up a dialogue about the importance of communication between people. Men, read the room, listen to what your partner is saying, observe how they are behaving - if you aren't sure, STOP and ASK. Women, protect yourself and don't get yourself in situations that could be dangerous. Verbalize your feelings, forcefully if necessary.

Agree with everything you said. It boils down to poor communication by both parties involved.

One thing I'll add to your point about persistence is that persistence only works when the person is into you. Based on her account I don't think she into him very much at all, his over-eagerness completely turned her off.

Also, based on what she admits she did with him no rational person would say she expected a night of snuggling only.

He played "the game" but his issue is he has none, and it came back to bite him. And for ' Grace ' it's easier to point the finger at him than admit she can't communicate and chalk it up to that.

Agreed. She probably feels some guilt and shame that she let things go so far before finally saying no unequivically. One thing she stated is how she was stunned and confused because he was acting very different from his public persona, his "character". I'm thinking she was hoping they would get back to his place, have some more wine, watch some tv, maybe make out a bit - if things had gone a lot slower, who knows how the night would've ended up. As it is, they get to his place and he had one thing in mind and pursued it with ferver.

As for him having "game", IMO he'd probably be better off taking that "claw" thing out of his repertoire - with my OCD, if some guy ever stuck his fingers in my mouth I would be completely turned off! Gross, dude.

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

I think it's time for someone to come up with "an app for this". That way parties can consent- swipe each other before any getting-busy gets started.

---

NOTE: Yes, I’m kidding; but, I’m not making light of a very serious situation. I'm just emphasizing that in some instances there is NO WAY to clear-murky-waters when two people have different what-I-said/ what-I-meant/what-I-heard versions of the same "conversation".

That's not going to fix the problem for several reasons. First, there have been instances of consent being rescinded after the fact. Also , it's extremely difficult to prove that consent wasn't coerced or given out of fear.

The real issue is the legal ambiguity of the terms" consent" and " coerce". This woman, Grace claims she gave nonverbal cues that she wasn't comfortable and her consent wasn't "enthusiastic" which is impossible for anyone outside the room to prove or disprove .

** No app or preemptive contract between parties could fix that.**

Guess you missed the "NOTE" part of my post re: kidding - AND THEN explaining the REAL POINT of my post.

My bad, this site's formatting throws me off sometimes.

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

Ansari was pressing hard, no doubt. He wanted it, and played the "game" that men have been spoon-fed forever - if you keep trying, eventually she will give in. That's the REAL "tale as old as time"! But, I can't help but feel that "Grace" was trying to get what she wanted, too, which I believe was a sweet, romantic date with a celebrity that she was attracted to.

The part about her sitting down in front of him and secretly hoping that he would try to "calm her down" by "giving her a massage or playing with her hair" - WHAT? Girl, what were you thinking? The minute you got back to his apartment and you let him undress you and perform a sex act on you while sitting on his kitchen counter should have informed you that this was not going to be a night of snuggling on the couch while watching tv. It's not easy to undress someone even if they want it or are actively helping, so there was no way she got naked unless she allowed it. Of course, getting naked with a man does not mean he has carte-blanche to do whatever he wants, regardless of what the girl wants.

I agree that we need more education in the schools, and one thing this whole sordid story has done is open up a dialogue about the importance of communication between people. Men, read the room, listen to what your partner is saying, observe how they are behaving - if you aren't sure, STOP and ASK. Women, protect yourself and don't get yourself in situations that could be dangerous. Verbalize your feelings, forcefully if necessary.

Agree with everything you said. It boils down to poor communication by both parties involved.

One thing I'll add to your point about persistence is that persistence only works when the person is into you. Based on her account I don't think she into him very much at all, his over-eagerness completely turned her off.

Also, based on what she admits she did with him no rational person would say she expected a night of snuggling only.

He played "the game" but his issue is he has none, and it came back to bite him. And for ' Grace ' it's easier to point the finger at him than admit she can't communicate and chalk it up to that.

Agreed. She probably feels some guilt and shame that she let things go so far before finally saying no unequivically. One thing she stated is how she was stunned and confused because he was acting very different from his public persona, his "character". I'm thinking she was hoping they would get back to his place, have some more wine, watch some tv, maybe make out a bit - if things had gone a lot slower, who knows how the night would've ended up. As it is, they get to his place and he had one thing in mind and pursued it with ferver.

As for him having "game", IMO he'd probably be better off taking that "claw" thing out of his repertoire - with my OCD, if some guy ever stuck his fingers in my mouth I would be completely turned off! Gross, dude.

That's a really weird thing to have in your repetoir , for anybody.

I think Ben Shapiro had the best take on this story, might be better to reserve sex for committed relationships especially for women who are expecting commitment in the future. Not knocking anyone who wants to have one night stands ,but don't expect a guy to stick around once he already got what he wanted or cater to your every whim just because you slept together. Same goes for men because there are girls out there who are users in thier own right.

I have a lot of young women in my family just starting out their dating lives who could learn a lot from this story, especially one who just started HS. I'll have her read the article and ask for her take on it.

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

Ansari was pressing hard, no doubt. He wanted it, and played the "game" that men have been spoon-fed forever - if you keep trying, eventually she will give in. That's the REAL "tale as old as time"! But, I can't help but feel that "Grace" was trying to get what she wanted, too, which I believe was a sweet, romantic date with a celebrity that she was attracted to.

The part about her sitting down in front of him and secretly hoping that he would try to "calm her down" by "giving her a massage or playing with her hair" - WHAT? Girl, what were you thinking? The minute you got back to his apartment and you let him undress you and perform a sex act on you while sitting on his kitchen counter should have informed you that this was not going to be a night of snuggling on the couch while watching tv. It's not easy to undress someone even if they want it or are actively helping, so there was no way she got naked unless she allowed it. Of course, getting naked with a man does not mean he has carte-blanche to do whatever he wants, regardless of what the girl wants.

I agree that we need more education in the schools, and one thing this whole sordid story has done is open up a dialogue about the importance of communication between people. Men, read the room, listen to what your partner is saying, observe how they are behaving - if you aren't sure, STOP and ASK. Women, protect yourself and don't get yourself in situations that could be dangerous. Verbalize your feelings, forcefully if necessary.

Agree with everything you said. It boils down to poor communication by both parties involved.

One thing I'll add to your point about persistence is that persistence only works when the person is into you. Based on her account I don't think she into him very much at all, his over-eagerness completely turned her off.

Also, based on what she admits she did with him no rational person would say she expected a night of snuggling only.

He played "the game" but his issue is he has none, and it came back to bite him. And for ' Grace ' it's easier to point the finger at him than admit she can't communicate and chalk it up to that.

Agreed. She probably feels some guilt and shame that she let things go so far before finally saying no unequivically. One thing she stated is how she was stunned and confused because he was acting very different from his public persona, his "character". I'm thinking she was hoping they would get back to his place, have some more wine, watch some tv, maybe make out a bit - if things had gone a lot slower, who knows how the night would've ended up. As it is, they get to his place and he had one thing in mind and pursued it with ferver.

As for him having "game", IMO he'd probably be better off taking that "claw" thing out of his repertoire - with my OCD, if some guy ever stuck his fingers in my mouth I would be completely turned off! Gross, dude.

That's a really weird thing to have in your repetoir , for anybody.

I think Ben Shapiro had the best take on this story, might be better to reserve sex for committed relationships especially for women who are expecting commitment in the future. Not knocking anyone who wants to have one night stands ,but don't expect a guy to stick around once he already got what he wanted or cater to your every whim just because you slept together. Same goes for men because there are girls out there who are users in thier own right.

I have a lot of young women in my family just starting out their dating lives who could learn a lot from this story, especially one who just started HS. I'll have her read the article and ask for her take on it.

Good idea! Knowledge is power.

It is definitely a good idea to reserve sex for later in a relationship. I'm not knocking one night stands or relationships that are just sexual, but both parties have to be on the same page. Women have to know that having sex with a guy too early sends a message. Fair or not, it does. My sister is in her freaking mid-40s and she is still grappling with this. Last year she reconnected with a guy she knew from school - he just separated from his wife, they met up to "talk" and boom, she became his booty call. He fed her just enough bull to keep her believing that she had a chance to have a real relationship. Thus, when he texted at 10:00 pm to come over, she was out of the house like a shot. Lasted for a bit, until she pressed for more, they would take a break, then she'd get that text and things would start over again. Even I gave him the benefit of the doubt in the beginning, but not my husband. He knew the guy was full shyte from the get-go.

It's nice to think that men might have evolved, have become "woke", have realized that the world doesn't revolve around them and their desires only, etc etc etc, but if nothing else, the Aziz Ansari story just serves to shine a light on the fact that, whether a man proclaims to be a feminist or a supporter of #Metoo or #Timesup or what have you, they still want to get some, and will use age-old methods to get it. All women are asking is, make sure the object of your desire feels the same.

And women, don't be coy, don't play games, don't send the so-called "mixed signals", get the romantic stars out of your eyes. Protect yourselves, stand up for yourselves. Yes, there are wonderful men out there who want a real relationship, but you will most likely have to wade through a sea of guys just looking for sex to find them.

Men need to learn and understand that life is not a porno - women need to learn and understand that life is not a romance novel.

Aretha was right, it's about RESPECT.

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

Ansari was pressing hard, no doubt. He wanted it, and played the "game" that men have been spoon-fed forever - if you keep trying, eventually she will give in. That's the REAL "tale as old as time"! But, I can't help but feel that "Grace" was trying to get what she wanted, too, which I believe was a sweet, romantic date with a celebrity that she was attracted to.

The part about her sitting down in front of him and secretly hoping that he would try to "calm her down" by "giving her a massage or playing with her hair" - WHAT? Girl, what were you thinking? The minute you got back to his apartment and you let him undress you and perform a sex act on you while sitting on his kitchen counter should have informed you that this was not going to be a night of snuggling on the couch while watching tv. It's not easy to undress someone even if they want it or are actively helping, so there was no way she got naked unless she allowed it. Of course, getting naked with a man does not mean he has carte-blanche to do whatever he wants, regardless of what the girl wants.

I agree that we need more education in the schools, and one thing this whole sordid story has done is open up a dialogue about the importance of communication between people. Men, read the room, listen to what your partner is saying, observe how they are behaving - if you aren't sure, STOP and ASK. Women, protect yourself and don't get yourself in situations that could be dangerous. Verbalize your feelings, forcefully if necessary.

Agree with everything you said. It boils down to poor communication by both parties involved.

One thing I'll add to your point about persistence is that persistence only works when the person is into you. Based on her account I don't think she into him very much at all, his over-eagerness completely turned her off.

Also, based on what she admits she did with him no rational person would say she expected a night of snuggling only.

He played "the game" but his issue is he has none, and it came back to bite him. And for ' Grace ' it's easier to point the finger at him than admit she can't communicate and chalk it up to that.

Agreed. She probably feels some guilt and shame that she let things go so far before finally saying no unequivically. One thing she stated is how she was stunned and confused because he was acting very different from his public persona, his "character". I'm thinking she was hoping they would get back to his place, have some more wine, watch some tv, maybe make out a bit - if things had gone a lot slower, who knows how the night would've ended up. As it is, they get to his place and he had one thing in mind and pursued it with ferver.

As for him having "game", IMO he'd probably be better off taking that "claw" thing out of his repertoire - with my OCD, if some guy ever stuck his fingers in my mouth I would be completely turned off! Gross, dude.

That's a really weird thing to have in your repetoir , for anybody.

I think Ben Shapiro had the best take on this story, might be better to reserve sex for committed relationships especially for women who are expecting commitment in the future. Not knocking anyone who wants to have one night stands ,but don't expect a guy to stick around once he already got what he wanted or cater to your every whim just because you slept together. Same goes for men because there are girls out there who are users in thier own right.

I have a lot of young women in my family just starting out their dating lives who could learn a lot from this story, especially one who just started HS. I'll have her read the article and ask for her take on it.

Good idea! Knowledge is power.

It is definitely a good idea to reserve sex for later in a relationship. I'm not knocking one night stands or relationships that are just sexual, but both parties have to be on the same page. Women have to know that having sex with a guy too early sends a message. Fair or not, it does. My sister is in her freaking mid-40s and she is still grappling with this. Last year she reconnected with a guy she knew from school - he just separated from his wife, they met up to "talk" and boom, she became his booty call. He fed her just enough bull to keep her believing that she had a chance to have a real relationship. Thus, when he texted at 10:00 pm to come over, she was out of the house like a shot. Lasted for a bit, until she pressed for more, they would take a break, then she'd get that text and things would start over again. Even I gave him the benefit of the doubt in the beginning, but not my husband. He knew the guy was full shyte from the get-go.

It's nice to think that men might have evolved, have become "woke", have realized that the world doesn't revolve around them and their desires only, etc etc etc, but if nothing else, the Aziz Ansari story just serves to shine a light on the fact that, whether a man proclaims to be a feminist or a supporter of #Metoo or #Timesup or what have you, they still want to get some, and will use age-old methods to get it. All women are asking is, make sure the object of your desire feels the same.

And women, don't be coy, don't play games, don't send the so-called "mixed signals", get the romantic stars out of your eyes. Protect yourselves, stand up for yourselves. Yes, there are wonderful men out there who want a real relationship, but you will most likely have to wade through a sea of guys just looking for sex to find them.

Men need to learn and understand that life is not a porno - women need to learn and understand that life is not a romance novel.

Aretha was right, it's about RESPECT.

Goth, I'm literally applauding your words right now! Couldn't have said it better myself!

Agree with everything you said, and I used to have a more laissez -faire attitude about sex , it took some tough experiences for me to understand the importance of securing commitment first, it protects your heart but also lays a solid foundation for your relationship.

A lot of guys have no interest in commitment to the girls they're sleeping with especially ones that

1:Only want to talk to you at night.

2: Only want to hang out alone.

3: Only want to spend time with you if they're getting something from it, etc.

4:Will sleep with you but refuse to call you "Girlfriend" or sometimes even" friend."

Also, I really wish 16 year old me knew all of this. Only thing I can do now is be an example for the Young ones in my family.

Also ,I don't mean to just pick on the guys, there are some really self-serving women out there who are just out to use guys and discard them when they get bored and usually they target the good-hearted , well-meaning guys.

I see it happen all of time, some of my friends are like that. Those guys who get hurt and end up disengaged and soured on women.

Now I'm gonna go eat dinner, then throw out all my porno and romance novels. 😊

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

Ansari was pressing hard, no doubt. He wanted it, and played the "game" that men have been spoon-fed forever - if you keep trying, eventually she will give in. That's the REAL "tale as old as time"! But, I can't help but feel that "Grace" was trying to get what she wanted, too, which I believe was a sweet, romantic date with a celebrity that she was attracted to.

The part about her sitting down in front of him and secretly hoping that he would try to "calm her down" by "giving her a massage or playing with her hair" - WHAT? Girl, what were you thinking? The minute you got back to his apartment and you let him undress you and perform a sex act on you while sitting on his kitchen counter should have informed you that this was not going to be a night of snuggling on the couch while watching tv. It's not easy to undress someone even if they want it or are actively helping, so there was no way she got naked unless she allowed it. Of course, getting naked with a man does not mean he has carte-blanche to do whatever he wants, regardless of what the girl wants.

I agree that we need more education in the schools, and one thing this whole sordid story has done is open up a dialogue about the importance of communication between people. Men, read the room, listen to what your partner is saying, observe how they are behaving - if you aren't sure, STOP and ASK. Women, protect yourself and don't get yourself in situations that could be dangerous. Verbalize your feelings, forcefully if necessary.

Agree with everything you said. It boils down to poor communication by both parties involved.

One thing I'll add to your point about persistence is that persistence only works when the person is into you. Based on her account I don't think she into him very much at all, his over-eagerness completely turned her off.

Also, based on what she admits she did with him no rational person would say she expected a night of snuggling only.

He played "the game" but his issue is he has none, and it came back to bite him. And for ' Grace ' it's easier to point the finger at him than admit she can't communicate and chalk it up to that.

Agreed. She probably feels some guilt and shame that she let things go so far before finally saying no unequivically. One thing she stated is how she was stunned and confused because he was acting very different from his public persona, his "character". I'm thinking she was hoping they would get back to his place, have some more wine, watch some tv, maybe make out a bit - if things had gone a lot slower, who knows how the night would've ended up. As it is, they get to his place and he had one thing in mind and pursued it with ferver.

As for him having "game", IMO he'd probably be better off taking that "claw" thing out of his repertoire - with my OCD, if some guy ever stuck his fingers in my mouth I would be completely turned off! Gross, dude.

That's a really weird thing to have in your repetoir , for anybody.

I think Ben Shapiro had the best take on this story, might be better to reserve sex for committed relationships especially for women who are expecting commitment in the future. Not knocking anyone who wants to have one night stands ,but don't expect a guy to stick around once he already got what he wanted or cater to your every whim just because you slept together. Same goes for men because there are girls out there who are users in thier own right.

I have a lot of young women in my family just starting out their dating lives who could learn a lot from this story, especially one who just started HS. I'll have her read the article and ask for her take on it.

Good idea! Knowledge is power.

It is definitely a good idea to reserve sex for later in a relationship. I'm not knocking one night stands or relationships that are just sexual, but both parties have to be on the same page. Women have to know that having sex with a guy too early sends a message. Fair or not, it does. My sister is in her freaking mid-40s and she is still grappling with this. Last year she reconnected with a guy she knew from school - he just separated from his wife, they met up to "talk" and boom, she became his booty call. He fed her just enough bull to keep her believing that she had a chance to have a real relationship. Thus, when he texted at 10:00 pm to come over, she was out of the house like a shot. Lasted for a bit, until she pressed for more, they would take a break, then she'd get that text and things would start over again. Even I gave him the benefit of the doubt in the beginning, but not my husband. He knew the guy was full shyte from the get-go.

It's nice to think that men might have evolved, have become "woke", have realized that the world doesn't revolve around them and their desires only, etc etc etc, but if nothing else, the Aziz Ansari story just serves to shine a light on the fact that, whether a man proclaims to be a feminist or a supporter of #Metoo or #Timesup or what have you, they still want to get some, and will use age-old methods to get it. All women are asking is, make sure the object of your desire feels the same.

And women, don't be coy, don't play games, don't send the so-called "mixed signals", get the romantic stars out of your eyes. Protect yourselves, stand up for yourselves. Yes, there are wonderful men out there who want a real relationship, but you will most likely have to wade through a sea of guys just looking for sex to find them.

Men need to learn and understand that life is not a porno - women need to learn and understand that life is not a romance novel.

Aretha was right, it's about RESPECT.

Goth, I'm literally applauding your words right now! Couldn't have said it better myself!

Agree with everything you said, and I used to have a more laissez -faire attitude about sex , it took some tough experiences for me to understand the importance of securing commitment first, it protects your heart but also lays a solid foundation for your relationship.

A lot of guys have no interest in commitment to the girls they're sleeping with especially ones that

1:Only want to talk to you at night.

2: Only want to hang out alone.

3: Only want to spend time with you if they're getting something from it, etc.

4:Will sleep with you but refuse to call you "Girlfriend" or sometimes even" friend."

Also, I really wish 16 year old me knew all of this. Only thing I can do now is be an example for the Young ones in my family.

Also ,I don't mean to just pick on the guys, there are some really self-serving women out there who are just out to use guys and discard them when they get bored and usually they target the good-hearted , well-meaning guys.

I see it happen all of time, some of my friends are like that. Those guys who get hurt and up disengaged and soured on women.

Now I'm gonna go eat dinner, then throw out all my porno and romance novels. 😊

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Gothish520 said:

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

@Knixon said:

Sounds like someone is going after Aziz Ansari now.

Well, if everyone any of us ever "rolled around naked with" came back to make a claim--there probably would be a long line at our doors--and the doors of all our neighbors.

I saw Knixon's post yesterday and pretty much spent the day going down the rabbit hole on this one. I read the original article, several opinion pieces, hundreds of comments, saw Ashleigh Banfield's video, saw the nasty letter the writer of the original piece sent as a response to a request to appear on HLN, saw Ashley's response to that, etc etc etc. As a woman this, more than almost any other moment in the #MeToo movement, has struck a nerve with me and obviously many other men and women.

Just a few of my takeaways:

1. The original article is a bit amateurish and could've used an editing eye.

2. A self-proclaimed feminist reporter making fun of the looks, age, and perceived popularity of a seasoned journalist is also extremely amateurish, juvenile, and definitely NOT the behavior of a feminist.

3. The rest is as gray an area as you can get in this kind of situation. I see both sides. I've been in situations where what the guy wanted to happen was not what I wanted to happen - thankfully, all the men I've encountered eventually took no for an answer (as did Ansari, when the girl finally put her foot down unequivically). A few were aggressively persistent, but I stood my ground and I was lucky that they did not choose to use physical force to achieve their goal.

I would love to hear some opinions on this from those who have read the original article. Very curious what you think CalabrianQueen, as you are in the demographic of the writer and subject of the article - what are women your age being taught about men, sex, and navigating the minefields these days?

Late reply again.

I read the original accusation by the woman referred to as " grace" and** I'm not convinced that situation was anything more than Buyers remorse **and bad sex. Based on her account nothing he did struck me as coercive and it appears he sought out consent for everything she claims went on that night. The issue is she didn't want things to escalate so quickly and decided to make her feelings ambiguous rather than voice them and expect him to pick up on "silent social cues" which is ridiculous considering she was consenting to multiple sexual situations already, but it's hard to gauge the situation when we weren't there.

It's a bad reflection on women when we portray ourselves (like this woman has) as powerless and too timid to voice concerns and preferences in sexual situations, as if we were children with no ability to communicate . That's hardly " feminism", and expecting men to read our minds is just as shortsighted. Aziz should not be villified for not being a mind-reader.

I say communicate with the person you plan on sleeping with and make your preferences known, there shouldn't be ambiguity so all parties involved feel comfortable. And I can't help but think a lot of the remorse she's expressed is because she lost attraction in the midst of the night's events, not because he did anything illegal.

If only she expressed herself in the moments she says she was uncomfortable with the same fervor as she's doing anonymously behind the article.

Like you said ,I'm part of the demographic ,and women my age are not taught anything about protecting ourselves or communication in sex, something Has to change about that. I think it's time to bring back Sex Ed in HS and throughout College and expand the education further than STDs and contraceptives.

Seems as if the fantasy date she had all worked out in her head turned out to be anything but!

Instead of whining about him taking advantage of her, she should be taking responsibility for her on "free will". It's not as if she was hypothesized/ threatened/drugged/etc. Her narrative clearly shows that she was consciously-aware of everything that was happening.

Buyer’s remorse sounds about right. Sounds as if she got-in-over-her-head, and then didn't have backbone enough, or the deftness, to extricate herself.

Sorry—may not be a popular opinion—but, she gets no sympathy here.

If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to choose sides, I'd choose his. I find myself agreeing much more with his defenders than his detractors.

Still, it has always boggled my mind how desperate men are for sex. I have had men literally beg me, and trust me when I tell you, I'm no beauty queen. Good lord, have some dignity.

@Gothish520 said:

If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to choose sides, I'd choose his. I find myself agreeing much more with his defenders than his detractors.

Still, it has always boggled my mind how desperate men are for sex. I have had men literally beg me, and trust me when I tell you, I'm no beauty queen. Good lord, have some dignity.

That's certainly true in many cases. Probably too many. But what I can tell you from my own experience, is that the angriest I've ever seen women get, is when they offered sex, and I declined. Whether they just assumed that all men were so desperate that I must be calling them hideously ugly, or anger that their attempt to gain leverage/control didn't work, I can't say.

@Knixon said:

@Gothish520 said:

If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to choose sides, I'd choose his. I find myself agreeing much more with his defenders than his detractors.

Still, it has always boggled my mind how desperate men are for sex. I have had men literally beg me, and trust me when I tell you, I'm no beauty queen. Good lord, have some dignity.

That's certainly true in many cases. Probably too many. But what I can tell you from my own experience, is that the angriest I've ever seen women get, is when they offered sex, and I declined. Whether they just assumed that all men were so desperate that I must be calling them hideously ugly, or anger that their attempt to gain leverage/control didn't work, I can't say.

I can see that, for sure. Women do think that men are ready 24/7, and are not used to getting turned down.

That's probably part of it, but I think there's more. Some women, at least - maybe most women - have, perhaps in response to how many men are, also come to view sex as the ultimate "prize" they can offer. And anyone with the temerity to turn down that "prize," well, how DARE they!

@Knixon said:

That's probably part of it, but I think there's more. Some women, at least - maybe most women - have, perhaps in response to how many men are, also come to view sex as the ultimate "prize" they can offer. And anyone with the temerity to turn down that "prize," well, how DARE they!

Agreed. I think a lot of women view their genitals as some kind of sacred temple that men have to prove they're worthy to visit.

I don't mean to sound braggadocious , but In my youth a lot of girls in my town who thought they were top notch would chase me and get turned down. Then they would get ANGRY, curse at me, yell, throw things, all the above like I committed a sin by saying" thanks but no thanks."