@LadyGigi said:

I'm all for that idea.

See? We can agree on some things after all!

@TheShredder said:

Of course Eugene switched sides. That's not even a topic of debate. You claimed that Eugene SHOULD HAVE resisted Negan, the way Darryl did. I'm saying that Darryl and Eugene is like comparing a Marine to a computer nerd. No way in hell a nerd will be able to do what a marine can do.

You mean sitting in a hole listening to Easy Street? Eugene say that Daryl was still alive. There was nothing to suggest that Negan would have killed Eugene. Negan would have killed Eugene on the spot after Eugene admitted to making the bulket.

I could do that easily handle sitting in a dark room listening to Easy Street. And I'm no marine. I'm closer to being a nerd. And I probably would be a coward in a zombie apocalypse but sitting in a dark room listening to music would be a piece of cake if it meant not betraying my leader and friends who risked their own lives to protect me. Eugene has no morals standards or priniciples.

@LadyGigi said:

I could do that easily handle sitting in a dark room listening to Easy Street. And I'm no marine.

Lol, we need an emoticon for a point flying over someones head.

@TheShredder said:

@LadyGigi said:

I could do that easily handle sitting in a dark room listening to Easy Street. And I'm no marine.

Lol, we need an emoticon for a point flying over someones head.

I bet you feel smug for thinking that you've bested me in a debate comparing apples to oranges dontcha? None of Rick's crew are anything like trained Marines or soldiers. Not even Rick is. You should have chosen a better description.

Well there's nothing else to figure out about Eugene. Nothing about him relies upon reality when you think about it. He's just a plot device. Nothing more. He's the wildcard that causes conflict for the protagonists. That's his sole purpose. There is no characterization for Eugene. He's no marine nor nerd. Eugene is just a plot device.

As a character though, I still wouldn't make excuses for him nor am I giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I could understand if we had seeHen torturing or threatening Eugene into submission. I wouldn't hate the character as much. But the way it's written, there are no excuses for Eugene's behavior. He's a coward without having really been tested or having sacrificed anything. Not even his morals because he has none. He did nothing constructive for Rick's group after his lies were revealed. He wouldn't even make a bullet without being pressured into it. Rosita didn't even threaten Eugene. Nothing bad would have happened to Eugene had he made a final decision not to make the bullet. Yet suddenly without being pressured or threatened, Eugene totally commits to being one of Negan.

So go ahead and make excuses for Eugene. Compare him to Bill Gates. As if. Compare Daryl to a marine. As if. Daryl was just a redneck meth head with an attitude problem before the apocalypse. He would never have passed training as a marine.

@LadyGigi said:

I bet you feel smug for thinking that you've bested me in a debate comparing apples to oranges dontcha?

No, I'm just pointing out how narrow minded your vision is. Torture isn't just sitting in a dark room listening to Easy Street. I'm sure Negan has many different ways to get what he wants. Besides that, you might be underestimating the power of music. Remember Noriega? Dictator of Panama. Remember how he was taken down? Bunch of Marines blasted heavy metal against his compound until he finally surrendered. That's a battle hardened dictator who surrendered to music. And you think that you can handle it? Come on.

Eugene wasn't properly utilized by Rick. He could have done a lot more and did set up a bullet making operation that he shut down AFTER they fell under Negan. However, the irony is that Negan saw his potential and is utilizing him properly. That's another reason why Eugene should prefer Negan over Rick. He's not only living the high life, but he's getting a chance to do what he's good at doing.

So, has everybody abandoned the possibility that Eugene may have a plan, or that he and Rick may've concocted some sort of scenario whereby he's an inside man?

@elliotthomas97 said:

So, has everybody abandoned the possibility that Eugene may have a plan, or that he and Rick may've concocted some sort of scenario whereby he's an inside man?

I think that theory is far fetched from what we've seen. It could be a plot twist, like, "we fooled you," type thing, by showing us only what the writers want us to see so we make false conclusions. But those types of stories generally piss me off because they purposely show us something that is incorrect to throw us off. And then pretend like they fooled us, when they really just lied.

From what we've seen so far about Eugene, and Ricks reaction, Eugene has definitely gone Negan and is a Savior now.

Yeah deus ex machinaI think it's called. I know it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever but I had pinned a bit of hope in seeing Eugene become more of a man/contributor (especially with that brain of his) and less spineless. Instead, the writers are doing that with the Fr. Gabriel character instead.

@chrisjdel said:

@Satch_the_man said:

"Would they accept him back?" They would have blown him half to Hell, if their plan hadn't been sabotaged.

I don't think they really wanted to kill Eugene, it was just a matter of more lives being at stake and for better or worse, he made his choice. It's not like he didn't turn down a chance to be rescued. I'm not sure how much Negan actually suspects him though. The explanation he gave, without seeming nervous at all, makes perfect sense. They covered the casket too tightly with the tarp. Like sealing someone inside a plastic bag. And the engine noise alone would've been more than enough to drown out the weak sound of her pounding away in there.

Getting Rick and the others to fully accept him again would take a meaningful gesture on Eugene's part to show he was never really on Negan's side. In other words he'd have to do something heroic involving some personal risk. We've seen him do it before. He's like a bird that was finally learning to fly but then just gave up. From what he said to Sasha, that lineup at the beginning of the season is what did it. He got into the RV and drove off into the sunset expecting the Saviors to kill him. But then the helpless terror of waiting for Negan to pick someone, and watching him beat Abraham and Glenn to death, seems to have driven him back into his shell of self-preservation.

A self preserving rat.

@elliotthomas97 said:

So, has everybody abandoned the possibility that Eugene may have a plan, or that he and Rick may've concocted some sort of scenario whereby he's an inside man?

I guess there is a possibility that Eugene is playing Negan, but being Rick' s inside man is pretty far fetched. That would require him to have set up Rosita to shoot Negan precisely so he wouldn't be seriously injured or killed and then take the chance that he doesn't kill Eugene on the spot. Far too convoluted.

@TheShredder said:

@LadyGigi said:

I bet you feel smug for thinking that you've bested me in a debate comparing apples to oranges dontcha?

No, I'm just pointing out how narrow minded your vision is. Torture isn't just sitting in a dark room listening to Easy Street. I'm sure Negan has many different ways to get what he wants. Besides that, you might be underestimating the power of music. Remember Noriega? Dictator of Panama. Remember how he was taken down? Bunch of Marines blasted heavy metal against his compound until he finally surrendered. That's a battle hardened dictator who surrendered to music. And you think that you can handle it? Come on.

I'm not narrow minded. The perspective of my argument relies on relevancy and what is presented. You wanna go off tangent to incorporate your military experience and that experience is irrelevant to this subject. I don't know about Noriega and I chose not to research it. I would like to know this though since it is relevant, was Noriega just a politician or a solider trained in resisting torture tactics as well? U would say that having to listen to heavy metal music at a loud volume on a powerful stereo system would cause pain the head when played above certain decibels. All Negan has is that little stereo that is playing the Easy Street song - a song that sounds as if it were made for children to listen and not played at the same level you described used to torture Noriega or what I just saw on an episode of Homeland.

Eugene wasn't properly utilized by Rick. He could have done a lot more and did set up a bullet making operation that he shut down AFTER they fell under Negan. However, the irony is that Negan saw his potential and is utilizing him properly. That's another reason why Eugene should prefer Negan over Rick. He's not only living the high life, but he's getting a chance to do what he's good at doing.

That was stupid to shut down the ballistics making shop. That ammunition could have been added to the tribute for Negan. And making it would have earned Eugene the respect he needed from the rest of the group.

@ckwong said:

Well , depends , if Eugene switch side in the last minute , maybe they will accpt him back .

Depends on how switch side

If Eugene switch side after the tide of the War has turn in favor of Rick , then his former friends will have a doubt about him .

But if Eugene would save a few people , like when Rick's group are about to lose and surrounded by Negan 's force , if Eugene would switch side and save the entire group , then i think Eugene would be OK.

And As Eugene had identified himself as "Negan" in front of a lot of people , Rick's group could put Euegne on trail for war crime

Eugene may as well go to the Kingdom to deal with Ezekiel since Ezekiel seems more forgiving than Rick would be. Eugene and Rick aren't even friends like Daryl is with Rick. I don't see why Rick would welcome Eugene back.

Honestly, I'm totally confused with the Eugene issue. On one hand, I think that he should not be forgiven. He betrayed his 'friends', the ones that kept him alive. After seeing how Negan did Glenn and Abe, he still thought it was a good idea to become "Negan".

But on the other hand, is a valuable commodity. He may not be the big scientist that he lied about being, but he has enough brain power to be very useful. But I would still have to think about the betrayal.

@Josie75 said:

Honestly, I'm totally confused with the Eugene issue. On one hand, I think that he should not be forgiven. He betrayed his 'friends', the ones that kept him alive. After seeing how Negan did Glenn and Abe, he still thought it was a good idea to become "Negan".

But on the other hand, is a valuable commodity. He may not be the big scientist that he lied about being, but he has enough brain power to be very useful. But I would still have to think about the betrayal.

I don't see it as a betrayal. This isn't a "you're either with me or against me," kind of thing. This was a job opportunity too good to pass up. Even if it was with the competing company you've been hating since you started your career.

@TheShredder said:

@Josie75 said:

Honestly, I'm totally confused with the Eugene issue. On one hand, I think that he should not be forgiven. He betrayed his 'friends', the ones that kept him alive. After seeing how Negan did Glenn and Abe, he still thought it was a good idea to become "Negan".

But on the other hand, is a valuable commodity. He may not be the big scientist that he lied about being, but he has enough brain power to be very useful. But I would still have to think about the betrayal.

I don't see it as a betrayal. This isn't a "you're either with me or against me," kind of thing. This was a job opportunity too good to pass up. Even if it was with the competing company you've been hating since you started your career.

Okay. Negan offers Eugene room and board under strict scrutiny whereas Alexandria offers houses with yards. The property is better protected. A scavenge hunt could produce a game system if Eugene wanted one.