@Mimi13 :

Was really looking forward to TGF but after watching the first 2 episodes I'm a bit disappointed. I loved the first seasons of TGW but over time kind of grew tired of Alicia (season 6&7), so the idea of a spin-off without her sounded great.

That's how I felt when I heard about the spin off, too. I also loved the first seasons of TGW, especially number 1&2. But near the end of season 5 it got stale and the show was running in circles until I didn't care about Alicia & Co. anymore. And season 6 was a big disappointment when it turned out that investing any of my interest into Alicia's campaign was suddenly for nothing. So I was looking forward to the spin-off without Alicia, hoping it will turn out to be an ensemble show with different important characters and storylines - not only one in the main focus.

Unfortunately, so far I just don't really care about the characters, especially Maia ...

Yeah, Maia is probably my biggest concern at the moment, too. Can you describe why you don't care about her that much? I think there are moments in which the actress is spot on - but others in which she's not good. Can you point out what's missing in your opinion? Why you don't care about her?

On the other hand: I think there are some relationships I look forward to to find more out about. Maia's mother is pretty creepy for my taste and mysterious in certains ways. I liked Lucca and Adrian interacting, also how everybody used everybody for certain things that came out of nowhere (Maia in court because Adrian needed another Judge, for example). Also, I was never a fan of Marissa when Eli was around, but she was great in episode 2 and I was happily surprised.

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

Still watching? It premiered 3 days ago...

@janar72

Hi, glad someone else is around who liked TGW, I pretty much got hooked on the show by the end of ep1, lol. Too bad they got rid off the message boards on imdb, I always liked to read what others thought about the show .

I'll have to rewatch TGF, I was pretty tired when I watched it so maybe I missed out on a few things. Then I can probably give you a better answer what exactly made it a bit disappointing. At the moment I can't quite put my finger on it why it didn't draw me in as much as the beginning of TGW did. About the Maia story, so far I just don't really feel sorry for her. I mean she probably lived a very privileged life and it must suck to be drawn into such a scandal but she is still really young and at the beginning of her career so I just don't feel sorry for her just because people aren't nice to her when the scandal becomes public. I guess it might be hard to find out that your parents are kind of shady but somehow that still doesn't make me care that much about her.

Let me know what you think and hopefully I can give you a better answer once I rewatched it ☺

@Mimi13 said:

Hi, glad someone else is around who liked TGW, I pretty much got hooked on the show by the end of ep1, lol. Too bad they got rid off the message boards on imdb, I always liked to read what others thought about the show .

I'm glad about this, too - thanks for your reply!

I really loved TGW for a long time and spent days and nights reading and posting on the IMDb message boards about this show; for a certain time quite obsessively, to be honest. I came late to this show, I think between seasons 3 and 4; I got hooked by all the scenes between Kalinda and Alicia from the start, especially at the end of season 2 (that was some acting and writing - I absolutely loved it). I couldn't stop binge watching until I was up to date back then. I had some beautiful conversations with other people on IMDb about this show; it's sad those boards are gone ...

I'll have to rewatch TGF, I was pretty tired when I watched it so maybe I missed out on a few things. Then I can probably give you a better answer what exactly made it a bit disappointing. At the moment I can't quite put my finger on it why it didn't draw me in as much as the beginning of TGW did.

I think I'll do the same on the weekend - if I find the time. It's the same for me: I can't put my finger on it. In my case, I think my expectation was too high after reading all those enthusiastic previews. At least, that's what I hope, and a second viewing might be more satifying? I'm looking forward to it ...

About the Maia story, so far I just don't really feel sorry for her. I mean she probably lived a very privileged life and it must suck to be drawn into such a scandal but she is still really young and at the beginning of her career so I just don't feel sorry for her just because people aren't nice to her when the scandal becomes public. I guess it might be hard to find out that your parents are kind of shady but somehow that still doesn't make me care that much about her.

I understand what you mean about not feeling sorry for Maia - I felt the same watching some of her scenes. What irked me was that I felt really sorry for her at the end of episode 1 when she was fired and Diane found her sitting outside and encouraged her to not give up. I thought that was a beautifully crafted scene that worked perfectly for me. But then, on the other hand, there are scenes that are overdone and left me cold about Maia's fate or what will happen to her. For example, when the lawyer Rupert came to tell Maia, her mom and Amy about her father's arrest, I thought that she was behaving like a little child and not like a grown, intelligent woman. I mean, I understand that she was under a lot of pressure and that this scandal hit her hard - but the degree of being shattered by this felt a bit contrived to me. But again - I think I'll have to watch it again, maybe it's a misinterpretation from the first viewing?

Let me know what you think and hopefully I can give you a better answer once I rewatched it ☺

I'll try to rewatch it again on the weekend and come back to let you know!

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

Hi janar,

Had time to rewatch ep1 and it didn't really change my mind. I like the beginning of TGW better than that of TGF. Like I said earlier, with TGW I immediately felt drawn into it, with TGF not that much. I can think of 2 reasons why.

1. I think Alicia was a more interesting and complex character.
2. TGW had a great balance between drama, humour and quirkyness and all the characters felt pretty real and relatable, even the weirder ones. TGF seems more focused on the drama and so far for me it's lacking when it comes to witty dialogue and subtlety in interactions between the characters.
   

I guess if I would put it in a really harsh way, I feel the King's kind of dumbed it down, everything is sort of spelled out for the audience . TGW moved fast and the writers trusted the audience to figure out what's going on, TGF wastes too much time for me trying to get me to see things their intended way.

Looking forward to your opinion.

Hey Mimi,

thanks so much for your reply - writing with you is really great!

I finally found the time to watch both episodes again, and I actually enjoyed it more than the first time. I think it was partly because I used some subtitles and understood all the details I didn't catch before (for example, I realized that those "algorithm guys" are litigation financiers and their purpose in the firm/show makes some sense to me). But also because I tried not to compare it too much to TGW. Instead, I tried to enjoy it as something new and in their own right, shape and form. I'm positively surprised about that feeling - I didn't think it would be like this ...

Nevertheless, I completely agree with you when you write:

I like the beginning of TGW better than that of TGF. Like I said earlier, with TGW I immediately felt drawn into it, with TGF not that much.

I feel the same! There was (and still is) something topical and fascinating about the beginning of TGW: This iconic press statement when Peter resigned and Alicia literally stood by him - and then the hard cut to reality a few months later on Alicia's first day back at the job as a lawyer when she was alone in an empty conference room. I think that beginning was just pure gold in terms of directing and writing; a great dramatic entrance for us viewers, because those 2 realities were so different for Alicia as a character and for us to watch.

For me, on a dramatical level, those first two episodes of TGF don't succeed in presenting such a strong downfall that draws you in as a viewer. Diane and Maia fall deep out of their specific worlds in episode 1, especially Diane - yes. And I feel for Diane in the scene with Kurt when she starts to cry, or with Maia at the end of episode 1 (my favourite scene from the pilot). But then, a few scenes later in episode 2, it already seems that life goes on at a new place and everything will be fine. This might be a wrong conclusion, of course, but it feels strangely less intense then what had happened to Alicia in TGW. It seems too polished and superficial, somehow.

I wouldn't necessarily say this has something to do with Alicia being a more interesting or complex character, though. I think Maia's story and both her's and Diane's involvement with her parents' ponzi scheme are quite interesting on paper. The weird thing is that you write that - for you - TGF seems more focused on the drama, while I would say that it's falling short especially in dramatic moments. For example, I wish Maia's father Henry or her uncle Jax would already be someone shadier like Peter was in TGW; until now, they're just new characters among others and it seems all will be fine in the future.

I actually like that TGF focusses more on the ensemble. However, this ensemble - so far - seems less strong than in TGW (except for Maia's mother - she's really creepy and I love watching her). Which results in something you also mentioned, it's lacking "subtlety in interactions between the characters". I like the tension between Lucca and Diane, that's working - but everything that involves Maia's story seems restrained for some reason. I'm not sure that has something to do with the actress or the writing - but Maia as a character is still the piece in the puzzle I can't really place into this show. And given that it looks like that Maia is designed to be the "new Alicia" in this show, or at least in big parts, as someone we as viewers have to feel sorry for or be invested in, the two first episodes strangely fell short in this department. At least in my opinion, unfortunately ...

I guess if I would put it in a really harsh way, I feel the King's kind of dumbed it down, everything is sort of spelled out for the audience. TGW moved fast and the writers trusted the audience to figure out what's going on, TGF wastes too much time for me trying to get me to see things their intended way.

I didn't have the time to read that many reviews after the episodes aired, but I often read something similar like you wrote here. That those 2 episodes needed too much time to introduce (new) characters and situations; there was too much explaining and not enough showing. I wonder if this is a result of being a spin off, and that they had to steer it into a different direction? We already know Diane and Lucca and their world, so it had to rely on this, but it also had to be something new and different. Maybe the Kings wanted and changed too much? I don't know.

What I know is - for myself - that I'll try to separate those two shows more from each other, in my mind. I'll try to find something unique about this spin off, and I'm interested in how they'll handle Diane in a mostly black work environment as a junior partner. That's really something I'll look forward to. I also hope the Maia story line will become stronger - so far, it's the part of the show I'm not really convinced by -, and that Lucca will find something to do except for just being there and enjoying other's butts phoning people with a weird accent solving cases. Let's hope so ...

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

Hi Janar,

Sorry I reply so late, was pretty busy...

Anyways, I'm 4 episodes in now and I like it and think it's a good show but I still prefer TGW.

I agree with you on a lot of points you made, for example that it's probably better to look at it as a stand alone show instead of comparing it to much with TGW but to explain why i like TGW better I kind of have to 😉

Like you said, it feels less intense (what happens to Diane & Mia, compared to Alicia). Everything is basically back to ok for them in Ep.2. That's also one of the reasons why I wrote that I found Alicia to be a more interesting character. My English is not good enough to really get across what I mean but I'll try. In TGW we had this press conference where Alicia stands by Peter and I feel sorry for her but at the same time don't understand why she goes along with it. That alone was kind of intriguing. I also liked that Alicia, despite being the victim of her husbands scandal wasn't portrayed as weak and retreating in self pity. Sure, she probably had to stay strong to take care of her kids and protect them but I think less well written shows would have easily drifted into melodrama etc. That leads me to my problem with Mia. She just seems a bit boring and comes across as weak. She loses her first job and wants to quit right away? Give me a break! She still has her (ivy league) law degree, her girlfriend, a big apartment.... sorry, but I just don't feel sorry for her, all I could think was: grow up! I agree with you that when it comes to drama TGW was stronger, what I meant with my comment about TGF being more focused on the drama was that it so far for me lacks the balance between drama and comic relief. TGW always had some great dialogue or quirky characters that made me laugh. I just loved that about TGW and TGF isn't quite there yet for me. Like you I like watching an ensemble cast and TGW was great at that in the first few seasons and TGF shows promise but is still a bit flat. TGW right from the start had a lot of interesting relationships between the different characters and I wanted to know how things would develop. With TGF I either don't care that much or feel like I already know where it's gonna go.

Anyway, those are a few things I noticed, there are a ton more but not sure you are even interested in me going on and on 🙂

Hope to hear from you, thought it was really interesting to see things from your point of view.

Take care Mimi

Hi Mimi,

thanks a lot for your long post and your thoughts - of course I'm interested in you going on and on about it! I love to read about the show from other perspectives; and don't worry at all about replying later or explaining your point in English (which, by the way, is really good). I completely understand you from my own experience; I often feel similar when I look for words/expressions in English and spend much time writing (that I (often) don't really have). So, all is fine, I'm so glad about your responses, don't worry!

Anyways, I'm 4 episodes in now and I like it and think it's a good show but I still prefer TGW.

I feel the same. There are parts I really love (the cases in episode 3&4 were very interesting; Barbara and Adrian are mysterious characters I want to know more about, especially of how the relationship of Barbara and Diane evolves; Mike Kresteva's comeback was really terrifying). And then there are parts that I really don't care for and feel wasted air time (sadly, still, everything that involves Maia; the banter between Lucca and Colin; the new investigator Jay). I enjoy TGF, but it's not as mesmerizing as the beginning of TGW for me so far.

I agree with you on a lot of points you made, for example that it's probably better to look at it as a stand alone show instead of comparing it to much with TGW but to explain why i like TGW better I kind of have to 😉

Yes, of course, you have to when comparing and analyzing the differences of the shows and why you like TGW better. I just mentioned this in my earlier post regarding me, personally, as a viewer. I enjoy watching the show much more when I forget about TGW for a while; TGW stands in my way of enjoyment when watching TGF. However, it's certainly necessary for comparison, yes.

Like you said, it feels less intense (what happens to Diane & Maia, compared to Alicia). Everything is basically back to ok for them in Ep.2. That's also one of the reasons why I wrote that I found Alicia to be a more interesting character. My English is not good enough to really get across what I mean but I'll try.

It feels less intense, yes. But I'm not sure if I agree with you that this is because of Alicia being a more interesting character. I agree with you on the following paragraph:

In TGW we had this press conference where Alicia stands by Peter and I feel sorry for her but at the same time don't understand why she goes along with it. That alone was kind of intriguing. I also liked that Alicia, despite being the victim of her husbands scandal wasn't portrayed as weak and retreating in self pity. Sure, she probably had to stay strong to take care of her kids and protect them but I think less well written shows would have easily drifted into melodrama etc.

That's certainly very true! The different layers of Alicia's personality and how she dealt with the situation were intriguing to watch - her character is very interesting, indeed. But for me, on paper, the same goes for Maia: Dealing with this family and the public ramifications of the ponzi scheme scandal while entering a very competitive job can disrupt someone like her at this stage of her life, no matter how educated, sophisticated or rich she is. And that's why I hesitate to agree with you on the following paragraph:

That leads me to my problem with Maia. She just seems a bit boring and comes across as weak. She loses her first job and wants to quit right away? Give me a break! She still has her (ivy league) law degree, her girlfriend, a big apartment.... sorry, but I just don't feel sorry for her, all I could think was: grow up!

I'm not sure it's because of her character per se that I don't feel sorry for her that much. When I compare Alicia and Maia, I even think it's more understandable for Maia to have this meltdown and come across as weak in certain scenes. Alicia has much more life experience (her biggest asset), already worked in a law firm, and thinks there are still people she can rely on and has to care for (even on/for Peter at the very beginning). I think the situation for Maia is a bit different, because this is all new to her at a much younger age and she's much more uncertain about herself than Alicia was. And we still have to see how secure Maia feels about/with her girlfriend in times of a crisis like this one, the same goes for her strings to those creepy parents and uncle Jax.

So, in that way, I think Maia acts accordingly to what had happened to her - I can understand her decisions and emotions and could/should feel sorry for her. But - I just don't. And it honestly puzzles me, because Maia and her storyline were the parts of the spin off that I looked forward to the most (next to Diane's). I wrote in my earlier posts that it might be because of the actress, Rose Leslie, or because of the writing for this particular character - I still can't say if those are the reasons or something else?

On the other hand, there's something else that I really don't like about TGF so far, and it might matter regarding my problems with Maia('s storyline). I think TGW did a much better job to flash out minor characters within the show and connect those to the main cast, especially Alicia. With "minor characters" I mean certain people that influenced my opinion about Alicia; they acted in small scenes with Alicia (and the cast) just to shed some light on them back. For example, I remember this woman who cheated on her husband in the train crash episode, who couldn't forgive Alicia that she was putting her on the stand and destroyed her relationship with the husband. This was a very small scene, but her reaction was magnificent and the intensity of this conversation was carved into Alicia's face.

I loved those little scenes, and there were plenty of those at the beginning of TGW in which I learned to like or dislike certain characters and feel for them (another great example is Kalinda's first girlfriend Donna who kind of contextualized Kalinda in a simple powerful scene while dumping her at the bar). Looking at TGF, such emotionally intense scenes are almost entirely missing. Which is very sad, because that made TGW so great to watch for me. For example, the several interactions between the clients of the cases and the main cast so far are almost all superficial; sometimes there's even no reaction between them in scenes I expect them to act. The retail guy from episode 2 and the interactions with Maia were entirely case-related - I missed a scene at the end about him lying or not lying and Maia's reaction. Or the doctor from episode 3 who did a humane thing and treated the patient - he was only a bystander for the whole episode and his few facial expressions did nothing that mattered emotionally for me as a viewer. Or in episode 4, at the end of the court scene, it's a scene between the two parties of the case without the main characters involved. This scene informs about the case, but it excludes the main characters and their reactions entirely.

Those are just a few examples, there are more I could mention (an opposite example would be the conversation between Barbara and Diane about having children and a successful career as a woman - that was one of the best scenes of TGF so far). And I wonder if those little scenes are responsible for me not caring about Maia as much as I should or it is intended by the writers? I feel that those scenes, personally, for me, were a big factor to understand Alicia from TGW better, and it's very sad that TGF lacks of those. And it's also a bit disappointing given that the show runners could make the episodes longer at CBS All Access. Why wouldn't they invest more time to flash out those characters and emphasize the relationships between them and the main cast? You know, the actor who played the "sperm donor" Mr. Haight in court in episode 4, Andrew Sellon, wrote in a blog post on his personal website:

My role was small; most of my lines were cut in the rewrites between the audition and the shoot date. That’s showbiz. But they did leave me something choice to say. No spoilers here; you’ll have to tune in to find out!

And that's something I don't understand about the spin off at all: Why do they cut lines of those characters who were essential at the beginning of TGW to inform us viewers indirectly about our main heroes? I think that's one big mistake so far in the spin off, and I think for me that's a big reason why it's less intense than TGW in certain regards. I wish they would include more of those scenes that really matter, instead of just going through the cases/motions ...

I agree with you that when it comes to drama TGW was stronger, what I meant with my comment about TGF being more focused on the drama was that it so far for me lacks the balance between drama and comic relief. TGW always had some great dialogue or quirky characters that made me laugh. I just loved that about TGW and TGF isn't quite there yet for me.

Yes, that might be true. The TGW/TGF humour is a hit and miss for me, though. I could never laugh about Howard Lyman, for example, or this doctor from last episode who couldn't hear properly - not really fun to watch. Or Marissa - sometimes fun to watch, but mostly a bit annoying for my taste. On the other hand, Maia in the tiny bureau of the arbiter in episode 2 was really comical. And next Sunday Elsbeth is back - let's hope without a mention or visualitsation of any or any antisemitic

Like you I like watching an ensemble cast and TGW was great at that in the first few seasons and TGF shows promise but is still a bit flat. TGW right from the start had a lot of interesting relationships between the different characters and I wanted to know how things would develop. With TGF I either don't care that much or feel like I already know where it's gonna go.

Yes, I feel the same. It's not only between those "minor characters" and the main cast; it's also within the main cast. Lucca and Colin is something that you can see everywhere on tv, I think. Or looking at the new investigator - not very promising and so far a bore (I read that he's going to "train" Marissa in the ways of investigating, and I thought about Kalinda and Robyn and got strangely sentimental ...). On the other hand, I'm excited to see what happens between Diane and Adrian/Barbara in the future - those relationships seem to be very promising. Especially with Barbara - I feel there's something mysterious about her and I want to know what it is? Also, I want to know who the third partner of the firm is, Mr. or Mrs. Reddick?

So, there are still things to explore. Let me know what you think? But, as I wrote, no worries: write when you find the time!

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page