Discuss 13 Reasons Why
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Suicide...
posted by OldnewbieSTAFFMOD on April 12, 2017 at 10:52 PM
Honestly from experience with friends who tried and thankfully failed and from personal research into psychology; there is no reason beyond what the individual is going through. Suicide is a personal decision made by someone who probably has considered it for a long time; may have even planned just how to do it for a very long time. A trigger event that meant nothing may have set the plan in motion but it was not the reason. The reason was in the heart and mind of the one taking themselves out. No one was to blame.
I have not gotten through the whole 13 eps yet but I feel a denouement coming where a "reason" is given which is typical of TV and movies. Nothing simply ever happens. There always has to be a reason, a villain, a factor. Sorry. Often there is not. Not in cases where seemingly fine people just step off. People can hide their sadness and their depression better than the best Oscar winning actors. Their lives become Performance Art. They display the version of themselves they want others to see.
A good friend from HS had his act down pat. Not until THIRTY YEARS later did he open up and reveal what was really going on with him. This was someone I thought I knew inside and out and he the same with me. Ooops, not even close.
Maybe the show will end differently and no one was to blame. Though it seems so far there are a whole host of people Hannah is placing blame on... everyone so far but herself.
Reply by glitter_bee
on April 13, 2017 at 3:46 PM
I'd love to talk about this after you finish the show. Don't want to spoil anything with my reply.
Reply by Oldnewbie
on April 13, 2017 at 9:55 PM
Thanks glitter_bee. No doubt there is more than meets the eye going on and I wasn't looking for spoilers. About to watch eps 6 and 7.
Reply by Oldnewbie
on April 16, 2017 at 1:40 AM
Well I finished all the eps and have to say it is hard to comment without spoiling so I will add that to the header... if I can change it... does not appear I can. okay then...
POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOLLOW
I have to stand by my assertion that in TV and movies there always has to be a defining reason someone ends their life. This show was no different. Instead of leaving us with an ambiguous "it was really everyone and no one" denouement which would be more in line with most real life suicides; it makes it clear there was a decisive event that pushed Hannah over the edge. Actually two, both related, a one two punch, to reference a boxing term.
Until then it was up for grabs. Suicide is still a single solitary persons decision and until the wham of episode 12 it could have been Hannah reacting to life as it was presented to her and a choice to say adios. (Example: I worked with a teenage girl who confided in me that since grade school, when she worked a summer on a horse farm, someone started a rumor that she had sex with a horse. As improbable as it was - she was a petite kid - the rumor took hold and continued to follow her into high school. Now this was all before texting, the internet, really anything like today. Just word of mouth. She was unhappy about it, but was ALIVE. She would later end up joining a band playing keyboards, and the band became pretty well know as the best Pink Floyd tribute band in New England, etc. She did not allow that insane story to ruin her life; as it certainly could have). Here Hannah has a concrete life defining moment that just makes TV viewers go "AHA!!" I do not if the book had the same ending; but here it was all to predictable and all too TV.
Really that is all I can criticize. The acting was good, the characters as believable as they could be, and I especially enjoyed Tony. For once we did not have a cliche gay character. We had someone who was a real person, a hard working manual labor car mechanic man who happened to be gay. I loved his friendship with Clay and that it remained unchanged after Clay found out Tony was gay. Also, I felt he truly was perhaps the only one who tried to do what Hannah wanted\needed; even if in the end he realized it was not the right thing, he remedied it. He made it right.
Clay though is the hero. His confronting Hannah's biggest tormentor, knowing he'd end up beaten, all to get the needed evidence was a wonderful sequence. I honestly did not see it coming until it, no pun, hit me in the face.
Where this goes from here? Nowhere I hope. While we do not get a clean cut Hollywood ending (which these days is very Hollywood); we can assume things played out in a very particular manner.
The surprise twist was another student attempting suicide. We are left not knowing if this character, who was part of the show from ep one, lives or dies, and Clay, Skye, and Tony's bf ride off in Tony's car not knowing anything is amiss. The character seemed the least likely to do such a thing, certainly did not play a major role in Hannah's demise, and so the door is open for a "Another 13 Reasons Why". But I do not see it working quite the same. Not like "The Missing" where it's season two had a different set of characters with just one connecting character, the police detective. It worked and more are planned (from what I have heard) featuring the detective. Here? I do not see how it could work even if set in another school, with new characters ( more like Fargo), and another mystery suicide. Unless... well who knows?
Over all: Enjoyed it but glad it is over!!
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Reply by afly
on April 19, 2017 at 1:19 AM
POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOLLOW
I have to agree that it rather over-simplified what is a very complex reality. The only hint that an actual irrational depression was raging under the surface was the seemingly complete disregard for her loving parents. It came off more like a plot hole or worse, the "self absorbed/selfish" trope which is just about the least helpful perception for depression sufferers
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Reply by Oldnewbie
on April 19, 2017 at 2:22 AM
POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOLLOW
There is that one moment on a tape where she says sometime to the effect of "Maybe everyone would be better off without me" which I know from a friend's attempt to end his life is something he thought; so it may well be a common feeling deep depression beings out in people.
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Reply by leonthesleepy
on April 19, 2017 at 10:44 AM
I agree with you! Loved the show, but the few things i can criticize, is that the escalation towards her suicide is the trope of 'traumatic event' that occurs to push main character over the edge. But then again, i hate to 'criticize' this since in real life shit like this does happen. Sadly. But before the reveal, it was kind of interesting that the show was heading towards the direction that, maybe, just maybe Hannah Baker was just over sensitive and blamed others a little too much. But the way the story progressed, the odds kept getting stacked against her. IF they went that route though, It would be a different, and honestly daring position to take on suicide, that some people romanticize it and do it for attention.
I understand why they did not go that route though. For one, it would be even more politically wrong, and many groups would probably be furious over how a mainstream show portrayed such a narcissistic character. But it could have a strong learning point that shows how the media makes martyrs of people who commit suicide, even if they were toxic people to begin with! A movie that does this is "World's Greatest Dad" with Robin Williams. Fantastic black comedy but extremely dark.
That being said, i was happy with how the show portrayed Hannah Baker overall. She wasnt a hero, or a matyr, and she made plenty of flawed choices herself. But it was all understandable considering what she went through, and her perceived lack of a support group. (her thinking Clay Jensen hates her). I would NOT call her weak like some have, but her choice to kill herself was a tragic one, and honestly some people have committed suicide for way less so the story still felt honest to me.
Reply by domremy
on April 21, 2017 at 7:04 AM
Your horse-fucking anecdote is one incident in an individuals life. Every person is an individual and everyone reacts differently to experiences in their life.
I think you ruined the show for yourself because you seem to have been adding up some kind of score to see if Hannah reached the 10 points needed to commit suicide. We all know that she kills herself before even starting episode 1.
Hannah gave up on life, it wasn't a separate incident that pushed her over the edge. She was already thinking of giving up when the wrote the poem. Depression is extremely complex and difficult to treat. Hannah kept trying to find something to hold on to, something to drag her out of the depression and something to live for but even when she had it right there in front of her with Clay, she rejected it because that's what depression does.
Even after she recorded all the tapes she considered trying to keep going because recording the tapes had been therapeutic but it still isn't enough because she is clinically depressed. It is very realistic.
The only gripe I have is that even though Bryce being arrested and charged for 2 counts of rape was implied and inevitable I would have liked to have seen him in front of court of law with a clear message that he was going to go to prison.