@banana_girl said:

Plain and simple, what you're saying here is that we need to make a compromise because the data base isn't built for that kind of specific data.

I'm not going to complain, because I like compromise.

Me too, and we have to make one.

But we are build in a different way than IMDb. What you see on their main page is a compilation (i.e. every single role), but TMDb display the last season's series regulars.

Yes, that's true, it's different. But displaying the data isn't the main difference/problem here, it's the data model. IMDb is more detailed and allows them to actually avoid a compromise that we have to find here on TMDb. Their data model allows them to separate characters from actresses/actors in general, even producing single character pages for Sarah, Cosima, Alison, and so on.

That means they're more flexible; they can actually put any single specific character to every episode in which this specific character appears and accumulate this data - without duplicating the credits for actresses and actors on their specific pages and on the main page of the show. And that's the "problem" here on TMDb regarding multiple roles of the same actress/actor in one show: You can't do the same thing here, because the data model of TMDb has no specific and separate data for characters. That's why we have to find a good compromise for these few cases - knowing that any compromise we choose will be flawed, in some way.

"Tony Zwickey" shouldn't be credited to season four, much less as a series regular.

I completely agree. See, we have four different compromises/options so far:

1.) "Various Characters" -> good: all characters are included (it's complete) - bad: it's non-specific and tells nothing (basically what Marr wrote).

2.) "Sarah / Alison / Cosima / Helena / Rachel " -> good: short/simple, series regular characters are included - bad: it's not complete and it credits characters for episodes they're not appearing in.

3.) "Sarah Manning / Elizabeth "Beth" Childs / Katja Obinger / Alison Hendrix / Cosima Niehaus / Helena / Rachel Duncan / Jennifer Fitzsimmons / Tony Zwickey / Krystal Goderitch / MK" -> good: it's complete - bad: it's too long, it credits characters for episodes they're not appearing in, and it mixes guest roles with series regular roles.

4.) single entries for "Sarah Manning", "Elizabeth "Beth" Childs", "Katja Obinger", "Alison Hendrix", "Cosima Niehaus", "Helena", "Jennifer Fitzsimmons", "Tony Zwickey", "Krystal Goderitch" and "MK" -> good: it's complete and accurate per each episode - bad: it turns series regulars into guest stars and produces duplicates on actor's and episode pages.

That's what we have to choose from, and as much as I would like to see no. 3 (because I like completeness), it's probably the best solution to take no. 2 as a compromise here (basically what you suggested plus Rachel). I think it's the best solution given the TMDb data model, in my opinion.

I wouldn't mind if every single role was displayed on Tatiana's profile, but I really don't know if Travis intends to improve the TV credits.

I'm not sure, but I think it would be technically very complicated for Travis to change something like this in the data model. And how often do we need this? I did a bit of searching for other tv shows with multiple characters, and I think there are not that many - so, is it necessary for Travis to look into this? Just a few other examples (I don't watch any of these shows, so I might write complete nonsense ...):

1.) For American Horror Story, I saw in the credits of Denis O'Hare and Sarah Paulson that they are credited for each season as regulars with different roles, resulting in 5/6 different lines on their actor's pages, all with the year 2011. This seems to be a compromise the contributors had to make - it doesn't look good on their pages, but it's probably the best compromise they could find.

2.) I read that Nina Dobrev played several different roles in The Vampire Diaries: Elena Gilbert (134 episodes) - Katherine Pierce (51 episodes) - Amara (3 episodes). The contributors here on TMDb decided to ignore the second and third character - probably because that was their compromise they had to make?

3.) Tobias Menzies plays two roles in Outlander: Frank Randall and Jack Randall. Here on TMDb, at the moment he's credited as a regular in the combined form "Tobias Menzies -> Frank Randall/Jonathan Randall" for all 29 episodes that aired in seasons 1 and 2, without any differentiation between his 2 characters at all. In comparison, IMDb lists Frank Randall with 11, Jack Randall with 14, both together with 20 episodes. IMDb can do this, but for TMDb it's impossible to do it this way, and it's probably the best compromise to list both characters together.

I don't know, maybe it's good to find the best compromise for each show and not to have one rule for all shows with these specific cases ...

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

2.) I read that Nina Dobrev played several different roles in The Vampire Diaries: Elena Gilbert (134 episodes) - Katherine Pierce (51 episodes) - Amara (3 episodes). The contributors here on TMDb decided to ignore the second and third character - probably because that was their compromise they had to make?

I think that's because for older entries/episodes lots of info hasn't been added (yet). (: I know I only started working on TVDb starting season 7 or so.. (if we're now at/upcoming season 9 that is)

@alltimemarr said:

2.) I read that Nina Dobrev played several different roles in The Vampire Diaries: Elena Gilbert (134 episodes) - Katherine Pierce (51 episodes) - Amara (3 episodes). The contributors here on TMDb decided to ignore the second and third character - probably because that was their compromise they had to make?

I think that's because for older entries/episodes lots of info hasn't been added (yet). (: I know I only started working on TVDb starting season 7 or so.. (if we're now at/upcoming season 9 that is)

That could be, I didn't check the entries/episodes at all. It will be interesting what compromise would be the best for her, then?

Oh, and, you know what's weird? When I'm on Nina Dobrev's page here:

https://www.themoviedb.org/person/19961-nina-dobrev

and I go to the credit line:

2009 The Vampire Diaries — (139 episodes) as Elena Gilbert

and I click on the link under "139 episodes", it shows only 1 episode:

https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/18165-the-vampire-diaries/episodes?credit_id=52585550760ee34661096e1b&person_id=4bc89787017a3c122d0186dc

The same thing happens for the "Orphan Black" credits of Michael Mando, Evelyne Brochu and Ari Millen.

I guess the reason is that all these actresses/actors are credited as regulars for some seasons and as guests for other seasons at the same time for the same show -> but only the guest episodes are shown. I think it's a bug ...

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

Yes, only the guest star episodes are shown in that view :( It can be quite handy for editors though, when moving tv credits across profiles where they're added to both profiles. You can quickly spot if they're added at season level, or at episode level :( And which one is quicker to delete.

@alltimemarr said:

Yes, only the guest star episodes are shown in that view :( It can be quite handy for editors though, when moving tv credits across profiles where they're added to both profiles. You can quickly spot if they're added at season level, or at episode level :( And which one is quicker to delete.

Haha, spoken like a true contributor/editor!

This is a general update -> I added all cast and crew credits for season 2 of "Orphan Black" today.

There are 5 more crew jobs in season 2 that I can't find - can someone take a quick look:

Tatiana Maslany's Acting Double -> ??? (I can't find "Acting Double" either)
Executive Story Editor (already added for "The Good Fight")
Original Series Design -> ??? (This man, Ian Brock, was Production Designer in season 1 -> but he did not work for season 2 - I think he's credited again for merits only - maybe we can ignore that)
Draftsman -> ??? (I can find Draughtsman - different spelling, probably the same)
Assistant Picture Editor -> ??? (I can't find it)

These are all from season 2. I also fixed the few credits that I did wrong from season 1, so the following are the one's that I'll add to the job ticket:

Theme Music Composer
Dialogue Coach
Story Coordinator
Assistant Location Manager (already added for "The Good Fight")
First Assistant Accountant
Executive Producer's Assistant
"A" Camera Second Assistant (already added for "The Good Fight")
"B" Camera Second Assistant (already added for "The Good Fight")
Camera Trainee
Data Management Tech
First Assistant Art Director
Graphic Designer
Best Boy Grip
Key Scenic
Scientific Consultant
First Assistant Picture Editor
Co-Creator

These are all from season 1. And I fixed the credits for the following actresses/actors who play multiple roles in "Orphan Black":

Tatiana Maslany -> "Sarah / Cosima / Alison / Helena / Rachel"
Ari Millen -> "Mark / Rudy / Miller / Ira"
Cynthia Galant -> "Young Rachel / Charlotte"

Any comments and/or suggestions are much appreciated! Before I can go on and add season 3, I have to fix all the cast/crew pages so far. There are so many double entries and a lot of blank pages, especially for the crew members! But that will take some time ...

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

Cynthia Galant -> "Young Rachel / Charlotte"

Can't she be credited independently for both roles?

@banana_girl said:

Cynthia Galant -> "Young Rachel / Charlotte"

Can't she be credited independently for both roles?

I could do this, but if I do:

1. it results in 2 different credit lines for each role on the same show on her personal page.
   
2. she would appear twice for both roles on the page for season 2, episode 10 (because she plays both roles in this episode).

Again, it's the question: What's the better compromise!?!

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

Number one is not a problem (that how people with two different guest starring roles are credited), but number two might be. I guess technically even if she is credited as Charlotte in X episodes and Young Rachel in Y episodes, it doesn't necessarily mean that she was credited in X+Y episodes. But I think in this case your way is fine. Ignore me, I didn't remember the two appeared at the same time.

I honestly don't see the problem with adding guest star records seperately? I thought that was the way togo. Even if one may play multiple roles in one episode. 🤔😊

That's usually my preferred way, yes! (But since Janar compromised on the big one I thought I'd comprise on the small one )

@banana_girl said:

Number one is not a problem (that how people with two different guest starring roles are credited), but number two might be. I guess technically even if she is credited as Charlotte in X episodes and Young Rachel in Y episodes, it doesn't necessarily mean that she was credited in X+Y episodes. But I think in this case your way is fine. Ignore me, I didn't remember the two appeared at the same time.

You mean I should click on "Ignore" on the far right?

@alltimemarr said:

I honestly don't see the problem with adding guest star records seperately? I thought that was the way togo. Even if one may play multiple roles in one episode. 🤔😊

Well, for this actress, Cynthia Galant, and her 2 roles it wouldn't be that bad. She would have only 2 lines instead of 1:

2013 Orphan Black — (4 episodes) as Young Rachel
2013 Orphan Black — (4 episodes) as Charlotte

instead of

2013 Orphan Black — (7 episodes) as Young Rachel / Charlotte

I personally don't like those 2 lines, and the total amount of episodes the actress was involved in wouldn't be clear from those 2 lines. It would be wrong, but that wouldn't be a huge tragedy in this case. I could change it if you all think it's the better compromise and that's the way to go because it was always the way to go and why change it now?

However, this case is simple. Ari Millen had 5 or 6 of these lines on his page, in some episodes he was included 3 or 4 times with his picture (because he plays 3 or 4 roles in one single episode), and he also switches from guest (season 2) to regular (season 3) back to guest star (season 4), which complicates everything immensely. As a result, the total episode numbers were all over the place and completely wrong. Well, Marr, if you honestly don't see a problem with all this, I don't have any other arguments to explain to you why I think this is absurd and wrong.

I have 2 more quick questions about "Orphan Black", both regarding the specials here:

https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/56296-orphan-black/season/0

1.) The first special is called "The Cloneversation" -> I think it refers to an event that's on youtube here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM0EA3-qtLA

My question: How do I credit the people? They are not in their roles, so I have to credit them like this:

Tatiana Maslany as Herself
Jordan Gavaris as Himself
and so on

Correct? I will do this when I find time - it's not urgent.

2.) The second special refers to a sneak peek for season 1, episode 1 -> but it's completely empty. My question: Can I delete this special?

Best wishes,

janar

"Love [...] is the most incredible gift to give and to receive as a human being." - Ellen Page

I always remove the cast from specials, because of that reason indeed. It's often behind the scenes/out of character, and then I add them as guest stars (Himself / Herself) indeed! Like with The Mentalist, or the Pretty Little Liars specials that weren't A LiArs guide to Rosewood/webisodes.

Imo, yes, sneak peek you can delete. I have removed them and first look stuff (and reported on TVDb) for shows like Limitless and others too. Better to add them to the videos section if they're on Youtube!

@alltimemarr said:

I always remove the cast from specials, because of that reason indeed. It's often behind the scenes/out of character, and then I add them as guest stars (Himself / Herself) indeed! Like with The Mentalist, or the Pretty Little Liars specials that weren't A LiArs guide to Rosewood/webisodes.

Imo, yes, sneak peek you can delete. I have removed them and first look stuff (and reported on TVDb) for shows like Limitless and others too. Better to add them to the videos section if they're on Youtube!

Okay, I'm going to do it this way later ... some time later ...