I've never watched TBBT, but noticed this thread and decided to pop in and check it out.

My feeling is that it wasn't (and still isn't) the end of the world as we know it, not having a wall, a month and a half ago, so why should it have been turned into this artificially-created obnoxious suddenly-urgent (MUST GET WAY, AND MUST HAVE WALL, NOW!) life-or-death huge emergency situation since then, that is being allowed to unnecessarily wreck government workers' lives and cause hardship and/or disruption to many American citizens?

My feeling about things are pretty much the same as yours, FormerlyKnownAs. The shutdown hasn't personally effected me, though I find it disturbing seeing, on the news, how it's impacting many.

@genplant29 said:

I've never watched TBBT, but noticed this thread and decided to pop in and check it out.

My feeling is that it wasn't (and still isn't) the end of the world as we know it, not having a wall, a month and a half ago, so why should it have been turned into this artificially-created obnoxious suddenly-urgent (MUST GET WAY, AND MUST HAVE WALL, NOW!) life-or-death huge emergency situation since then, that is being allowed to unnecessarily wreck government workers' lives and cause hardship and/or disruption to many American citizens?

My feeling about things are pretty much the same as yours, FormerlyKnownAs. The shutdown hasn't personally effected me, though I find it disturbing seeing, on the news, how it's impacting many.

The other side of that, of course, is, why would Nancy Pelosi and others insist now that "walls are immoral," when she and Schumer and others have argued and voted in favor of the border wall, as recently as 2012. The only real difference now, is who is president. (And perhaps the increasing lefty-ness of the people they're trying to get to vote to keep them in office. Not that Pelosi herself really has anything to worry about there.)

And even now, Pelosi and Schumer and others, are okay with repairing and reinforcing etc, existing barrier sections. As well as spending more on "ports of entry" etc. They just refuse to support any NEW wall. But if walls are (now) immoral, they should be insisting that ALL of the EXISTING walls come down too, which should include those around their own mansions.

In addition, $5 billion is 1/10th of 1% - 1/1000th - of the federal budget. Pelosi would happily spend that much on mini-bar costs for congressional junkets. Or to build new/improved roads to make it easier for (illegal) immigrants to come in. (She has actually said that.) The idea that she is now some kind of "budget hawk" for refusing to spend $5 billion on a "wall" - especially when she's also said that $5 billion for ANYTHING BUT A WALL would be just fine - is beyond laughable.

(1) On which side of the fence do you fall in the He Said/She Said border wall battle of wills?

Well as the late comedian Bill Hicks said "I can't watch TV longer than five minutes without praying for nuclear holocaust"

(2) Are you directly affected?

Only by the constant irritation of this nonsense. People are such puppets, Before Trump made this his mantra few people even cared

(3) Anyone surprised that an online funding effort generated over $20M dollars for a Border Wall?

Not surprised at anything that happens on the net these days

(4) Would love to get the take of outsiders-looking-in; that is, non-USAers living in other countries

As for what people outside the US might say, Non USA-ers have their own issues and problems and don't care about our petty squabbles. It's not like any one is discussing Brexit here or other such topics.

I suspect some European countries are wishing they had walls, considering the flow of (often questionable) people leaving Syria etc. They can't afford to build them, though, because they spend every penny - including pennies that should be spent on their own defense - on making sure people can get on long waiting lists for "free health care." As for real-world experience, Israel found that terrorist attacks dropped almost to zero after they set up border fences etc.

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

Surprised we haven’t discussed the partial shutdown of the government; especially since Howard works for them and Leonard’s project (and, no doubt many others) are sponsored by them.

But seriously—what a clusterf##k!

So; thought I’d ask...

(1) On which side of the fence do you fall in the He Said/She Said border wall battle of wills?

(2) Are you directly affected?

(3) Anyone surprised that an online funding effort generated over $20M dollars for a Border Wall?

(4) Would love to get the take of outsiders-looking-in; that is, non-USAers living in other countries.

---

What I ...

(1) Walls don’t keep the determined out; and the determined will most likely be the ones making the effort. I don’t know the answer to prevention; but, I know it’s not a wall. So, I’m siding with the “no $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for a wall” group.

(2) So far I'm not directly affected by the shutdown. But, I think I’m lucky that I don’t plan to fly anywhere anytime soon; and that I’m not dependent on any non-essential federal services. Also, while I’m not affected directed, it offends me that my fellows are deliberately turning our national parks and recreation areas into cesspools.

(3) I’m not surprised that online funding for a border wall raised money; but I am surprised about how much it raised before it shutdown (ha-ha). There will always be folks with a “burning bush” mentality; that is, if someone in authority says it true—then it's true. So, yes I can see those few ponying up their cash; but, so many giving so much--no.

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ON THAT NOTE:

An open discussion is an open discussion without restrictions. But, the idea here isn’t to debate my opinions (or anyone else’s); but to contribute your on thoughts on the matter.

Hiiiiiiii FKA. I hate it, it’s the worst Mexican standoff of all time. People are missing paychecks, every facet of society is affected all because of stubbornness and lack of priorities . It needs to be resolved ASAP.

FormerlyKnownAs--

I know I'm late to the party, I saw your thread a while back and now that I have a little time, I'd like to respond:

The Wall-- I'm against it as it was originally characterized by President Trump: basically a high, impenetrable, steel-and-concrete barrier stretching from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean. To those who support such a monstrosity, I have asked: If such a wall were constructed, does that mean we could reduce the size (and thus save money) of the CBP and ICE? To which the answer has always been "no".

Which seems to me indicates that even supporters of the Wall believe that it won't be all that effective in stopping illegal immigration, if we still require CBP and ICE to remain at their current (or even increased) funding levels after a wall is built.

On a related note, I've also asked supporters of a Wall if they personally have ever lost their job to an illegal immigrant; OR if they personally know of someone who has lost a job to an illegal immigrant; again, so far, the answers have been "no". For some reason, people watch certain news outlets, they see footage of an illegal immigrant jumping a barrier or marching North from Central America, and they slowly squeeze their beer can and scream "those damn illegals are taking American jobs! We've gotta stop 'em!"

To which I say, the U.S. unemployment rate is currently at 4.0%; with, depending on which news source you believe, 11 million to 40 million illegals living in the U.S. (I personally think the 40 million figure is hogwash). If we kicked out all the illegals tomorrow, who would harvest our crops? We simply do not have enough available (legal) workers to do those jobs. Not to mention the economic hit our economy would take after a mass deportation. People like to claim that illegals drain U.S. public assistance programs, but they disregard that most young illegals in the U.S. are here to work, mostly in agricultural/menial jobs that U.S. citizens do not want to do. These same illegals DO pay taxes while living here-- they pay sales taxes on the various products they buy in the respective states they live in, some of them DO pay state and Federal income taxes (using other people's Social Security numbers), and these illegals buy cars and pay rent. An overnight loss of 11 million or more of these consumers would be a devastating economic blow to the United States.

That said, I do think we need to find a path to citizenship and legal status for those immigrants who are nonviolent (which is most of them). Those who have committed felonies need to be locked up or deported; and I am not against fences and other barriers on our Southern border; but solid, Cold War-style East Bloc Walls from sea to shining sea? Absolutely not. Makes no sense when we've got the Statue of Liberty pointing East to welcome people in, yet we'd have a solid Wall on the South; the implications of what that means do not provide good optics for America.

The Shutdown-- Yes I was affected; I am a Federal employee; I was deemed "excepted", and for the last three weeks of the five-week shutdown I had to report to work without pay. I am a Food Inspector (aka "meat inspector" as I inspect meat and poultry products for the USDA), and the majority of meatpacking plants are not allowed to produce product without Federal inspection. No inspection= no meat or poultry in the supermarket or in the restaurant. I am still in the process of receiving my backpay. It goes without saying that it's grossly unfair to have to go to work without pay, and morale at my Agency is extremely low right now. Full disclosure: for about the first two weeks of the shutdown, during Christmas and New Years, I didn't have to work because I had previously-scheduled vacation and someone covered my position; but I still didn't get paid for that "vacation" (I am currently awaiting backpay).

The $20 million dollars received for the Wall through online funding-- actually, given the vitriol from certain sectors of the Right DEMANDING a Wall be built, I am surprised the amount raised was so little. Mexico was supposed to pay for the Wall after all; I guess Americans don't want to pay for it, either

As far as what other countries think-- I'm American, so I can't say for sure, but in my opinion this whole fiasco over the Wall has been a tremendous national embarrassment for the United States.

People mostly wouldn't know if they lost their job due to immigrants, legal or not. Or they might be paid more if illegals didn't get paid so little, under the table. Very few people are actually required to travel to India to train their replacements, for example. People also don't know if they might have gotten a job, or a promotion or whatever, if some kind of government regulation hadn't prevented a new company from starting or a new factory from being built, etc.

As for the wall/barrier - which is certainly not now a solid wall, if it was ever intended to be - as posted earlier, a lot of European countries WISH they had one now. With all the often-questionable people flooding in from Syria etc. Also, it's worth noting that Mexico is building a "wall" on THEIR southern border. Which, lucky for them, is much smaller than ours.

It is not about a wall. The issue is Trumps ego and using the Dems as his enemy. If the wall was so important to the Repubs then they would have passed it in the first two years of the Trumps presidency. It will become another massive boondogle funneling tax payer money down at the expense of better uses for it no matter what percentage of the total budget it it and end up in the coffers of whatever companies will be used to build it. Funny how certain political persuasions think the government can do no good yet expect it to do this well and a massive transfer of private land to government hands as well, another thing that persuasion think is no good.