@M. LeMarchand said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

Is there racism? Of course. But to ring that bell whenever anything goes wrong in life is a pathetic way to live. I'm not going to get into the specifics of each or any of these fatal police shootings. But I've worked with many black people and have had several black friends. Most all of them share my older friend's outlook on the police. Right or wrong. And whenever they encounter the police, just for a traffic stop, that automatic anger swelled. And believe me, police officers pick up on that anger. So here we have interactions that are starting out with the emotion of hate and fear manifesting themselves before one word is even uttered. It's not hard to see how escalations take place.

What the discussion needs to be now is how to remedy this situation. The Anthem protest is setting that discussion back - not moving it forward. IMO.

Though I think the Anthem Protest isn't just about the perceived racism, but also against a president who doesn't seem to care about it.

Then that's REALLY petty and ignorant of the players. They don't like Donald Trump and what he said, so they take what has traditionally been one of the few truly unifying moments in the country, and use that as their focal point? For the ones who took a knee for that silly reason, they deserve all the backlash they are getting. They and a lot of other people fall right into the land mine traps Trump intentionally or accidentally sets for them.

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@M. LeMarchand said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

Is there racism? Of course. But to ring that bell whenever anything goes wrong in life is a pathetic way to live. I'm not going to get into the specifics of each or any of these fatal police shootings. But I've worked with many black people and have had several black friends. Most all of them share my older friend's outlook on the police. Right or wrong. And whenever they encounter the police, just for a traffic stop, that automatic anger swelled. And believe me, police officers pick up on that anger. So here we have interactions that are starting out with the emotion of hate and fear manifesting themselves before one word is even uttered. It's not hard to see how escalations take place.

What the discussion needs to be now is how to remedy this situation. The Anthem protest is setting that discussion back - not moving it forward. IMO.

Though I think the Anthem Protest isn't just about the perceived racism, but also against a president who doesn't seem to care about it.

Then that's REALLY petty and ignorant of the players. They don't like Donald Trump and what he said, so they take what has traditionally been one of the few truly unifying moments in the country, and use that as their focal point? For the ones who took a knee for that silly reason, they deserve all the backlash they are getting. They and a lot of other people fall right into the land mine traps Trump intentionally or accidentally sets for them.

But that's what got the majority of players...not to mention coaches and even owners...to get involved. Trump basically insulted the whole lot. He demanded the owners take action against those who kneeled and called them SOBs. Now it's become a matter of team unity, working as one. All the players share a common enemy, the person still insulting them two days later while taking the better part of a week to acknowledge what's going on in Puerto Rico (and insulting them in the process as well).

I originally agreed that the kneeling was the wrong forum to protest the mistreatment of blacks because (to me) the flag represents all of us. All 325 million Americans. But then Trump made it political. Honestly, I half-expected him to try to rescind the NFL's anti-trust exemption, but I'm guessing someone in his admin (Kelly, most likely) told him that would be a cut-and-dry impeachable offense.

Trump's approval ratings would go up at least 15% if he just STFU and stayed off of Twitter.

@MurphAndTheMagicTones said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@M. LeMarchand said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

Is there racism? Of course. But to ring that bell whenever anything goes wrong in life is a pathetic way to live. I'm not going to get into the specifics of each or any of these fatal police shootings. But I've worked with many black people and have had several black friends. Most all of them share my older friend's outlook on the police. Right or wrong. And whenever they encounter the police, just for a traffic stop, that automatic anger swelled. And believe me, police officers pick up on that anger. So here we have interactions that are starting out with the emotion of hate and fear manifesting themselves before one word is even uttered. It's not hard to see how escalations take place.

What the discussion needs to be now is how to remedy this situation. The Anthem protest is setting that discussion back - not moving it forward. IMO.

Though I think the Anthem Protest isn't just about the perceived racism, but also against a president who doesn't seem to care about it.

Then that's REALLY petty and ignorant of the players. They don't like Donald Trump and what he said, so they take what has traditionally been one of the few truly unifying moments in the country, and use that as their focal point? For the ones who took a knee for that silly reason, they deserve all the backlash they are getting. They and a lot of other people fall right into the land mine traps Trump intentionally or accidentally sets for them.

But that's what got the majority of players...not to mention coaches and even owners...to get involved. Trump basically insulted the whole lot. He demanded the owners take action against those who kneeled and called them SOBs. Now it's become a matter of team unity, working as one. All the players share a common enemy, the person still insulting them two days later while taking the better part of a week to acknowledge what's going on in Puerto Rico (and insulting them in the process as well).

I originally agreed that the kneeling was the wrong forum to protest the mistreatment of blacks because (to me) the flag represents all of us. All 325 million Americans. But then Trump made it political. Honestly, I half-expected him to try to rescind the NFL's anti-trust exemption, but I'm guessing someone in his admin (Kelly, most likely) told him that would be a cut-and-dry impeachable offense.

Trump's approval ratings would go up at least 15% if he just STFU and stayed off of Twitter.

Wow. TRUMP made it political? Please. Let's not exaggerate things Murph. It was already very political. Did Trump pour gas on it? Yes. But let's not kid ourselves, it was already a big issue. And it was political. And you say "Now it's become a matter of team unity, working as one. All the players share a common enemy". Be very careful about using absolutes. Only a 100+ players actually protested. That's a far cry from "All the players". And they are finding out that using the Anthem as the focal point for their protest really isn't such a great idea after all.
Thankfully, if tonight is any indication, the players have come to their senses.

@bratface said:

@ArcticFox12 said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

The answer to racial divide is not to engage in divisive actions that you know infuriate a huge segment of the population, like disrespecting the Flag and/or National Anthem. If you think a person is being disrespectful, and you want respect, the way to receive it is NOT to spit in their face. You know what that causes? A fight.

This Anthem protest has gone on long enough. It's time to knock it off and do something productive if you really give a crap.

If you support sitting, taking a knee, or boycotting the National Anthem - please tell me, SPECIFICALLY, what it is you want changed. Because this "raising awareness" reason is complete and utter BS. Everyone is aware of what people are ticked about. So now you have the podium. I'm all ears. Tell me specifically what you want changed. Because what it appears to me is, people want bigotry to go away, or what they perceive as bigotry. I've got news for you, you're not just asking, you are begging to be disappointed. You aren't changing how anyone FEELS or THINKS. Not with these actions. Not like this. What this has devolved into is, every time any minority member of society is killed by a police officer, it's an automatic pivot to 'racism'. That kind of absolutism and default judgement is simply absurd and is fueling more problems than it's solving. And it is, in fact, another form of prejudice. Because you are pre-judging the situation. Engaging the the very behavior you hope to eliminate isn't the route to take. But in any event, please - tell me specifically what the goal here is. Because for people who claim to be fighting against 'divisiveness', you really couldn't act more divisive if you tried.

For me, the Flag was draped over my Father's casket. It was folded and given to my Mother by active Servicemen, and it is now with me. I will ALWAYS STAND and respect the Flag and The National Anthem. That's my take.

Again - if we want to work on things - let's get SPECIFIC. Because, again, what's being done now is creating another problem and more divisiveness, not solving those problems.

Lastly, for those who are in the crowd explaining how this isn't disrespectful, I can say this: Yes, it's your right to peacefully protest. But if you have to continually explain to millions why you're not being disrespectful - you're being disrespectful

Censorship, once again great response, very detailed and insightful.

A lot of what you said I agree with especially the parts about automatic pivots to racism. I do think there are some issues with police letting thier preconceived ideas about minorities itch thier trigger finger in tense situations but I also believe a lot of those incidents are completely unrelated to race . Police brutality appears to be the main reason for these protests but if we're being completely transparent here, most of these athletes are kneeling now because it's a trend or because Trump insulted them and called them "sons of bitches".

The raising awareness excuse is a smokescreen. My Irish/English family is as patriotic as they come and none of us would ever kneel for the anthem. To me that anthem represents the changes we wish to see made in this country so we take those few minutes when the anthem is played to appreciate that .

Do you know the history of the Irish when they first came to this country? They were treated like animals, called vermin, rapists, etc., signs everywhere that said 'No Irish need apply'. Racism is everywhere still in 2017. We need to come together as a country to fight racism/bigotry no matter if it is against blacks, hispanics, asians, jews, gays. I think a lot of people forget what the anthem & POA is supposed to mean, "With liberty and justice for all". That is why I protest, because people forget that.

Bratface, I'm well aware of how Irish people were treated in this country and by our brethren in the UK. My English ancestors definitely persecuted my Irish ancestors.

There's a long brutal history of racism is the country and we should combat it in the most positive ways we can Think of collectively.

My point was that this anthem to me personally represents the change I want to see in this country so I honor that anthem. What needs to happen is that these protesting players need to be heard. They've raised awareness, they've put the nation and the world on notice ,now let's discuss how to work toward fixing the issues they're protesting.

There's needs to be an endgame.

@censorshipsucks06 said:

Personally I think the players are mistaken because they picked one of the very few things that actually DO unite people in this country, and they chose that to focus their protest on that. *I think if they unveiled a banner and stood united on the field ASAP after the game is over, when the camera's are actually running (99% of the time they don't show the Anthem on TV) instead of acting like the Pharisees and getting in their "prayer circle", they'd get a much more meaningful point across to people. That would be powerful, and you'd likely get close to 100% participation by players and coaches. * These players need to think a little, and not follow a bad knee-jerk reaction by a has been like Collin Kaepernick.

Also, Nixon writes about "How many of those multimillionaires have opened a youth center in their home towns, versus how many have million-dollar chandeliers in their mansions?" How many of these players are working in the communities with their police departments to try and build a bridge? There are community outreach programs galore in most communities. Some of the players engage in those, but most are seeking what night clubs they can get to ASAP after the games and practices are over. Taking a knee during a song is easy. I'm looking for meaningful action on the topic. But this is just like when they wear pink in October to ostensibly 'Raise Awareness" for breast cancer. Seriously - who's NOT aware of breast cancer??? And the NFL makes money hand over fist selling 'pink everything', giving very little of it to cancer research.

I'm sure there are some players trying to build those bridges that get lost and buried underneath all the negativity. I also think more needs to be done. The NFL should commit some resources to funding a committee with current players involved addressing the social issues they're protesting.

@Knixon said:

@M. LeMarchand said:

@Knixon said:

A goal to aspire to, doesn't have to be already 100% in place in order to be respected.

The fact that it's still not in place after nearly a century is a bit worrying, though.

Whilst I agree with whoever it was who pointed out that every time a police officer shoots a black person we get BLM protests, but gang members seem to forget that BLM when shooting each other, I also agree that there is a lot of racism in the US and understand the protests. In all the pictures I've seen, it's been hard to spot a white player kneeling which surely speaks to the fact that raising awareness of racism is still needed.

Unless maybe the white players realize it's actually just self-promoting claptrap. How many of those multimillionaires have opened a youth center in their home towns, versus how many have million-dollar chandeliers in their mansions?

Well, nearly a century in the overall scheme of things isn't that long. And it might help if people looked around the world a bit too, and realized that as bad as they might think it (still) is here, it's much worse in much of the world. They've had just as much time to get stuff right, even longer really if you figure the US has only existed for just over 200 years. Japan is a very racist place, they've been pretty much the same country and people for millennia. What's THEIR excuse?

The US was one of the first places to eliminate slavery. Some parts of the world, especially some muslim parts, still have slavery. (Which is one reason it's... amusing... how many "African americans" embrace islam. Muslim countries were among the biggest slave sellers in the past. Partly because they figured non-muslims didn't have any rights.)

Your conclusions never follow the previous statement. It's syllogism, nonsense or not on topic. What does being Muslim have to do with supporting slavery? Why do you put African Americans in quotes and what does any of it have to do with the thread topic?

Everything you say sounds like you copied it from Glenn Beck's diary.

@MurphAndTheMagicTones said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@M. LeMarchand said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

Is there racism? Of course. But to ring that bell whenever anything goes wrong in life is a pathetic way to live. I'm not going to get into the specifics of each or any of these fatal police shootings. But I've worked with many black people and have had several black friends. Most all of them share my older friend's outlook on the police. Right or wrong. And whenever they encounter the police, just for a traffic stop, that automatic anger swelled. And believe me, police officers pick up on that anger. So here we have interactions that are starting out with the emotion of hate and fear manifesting themselves before one word is even uttered. It's not hard to see how escalations take place.

What the discussion needs to be now is how to remedy this situation. The Anthem protest is setting that discussion back - not moving it forward. IMO.

Though I think the Anthem Protest isn't just about the perceived racism, but also against a president who doesn't seem to care about it.

Then that's REALLY petty and ignorant of the players. They don't like Donald Trump and what he said, so they take what has traditionally been one of the few truly unifying moments in the country, and use that as their focal point? For the ones who took a knee for that silly reason, they deserve all the backlash they are getting. They and a lot of other people fall right into the land mine traps Trump intentionally or accidentally sets for them.

But that's what got the majority of players...not to mention coaches and even owners...to get involved. Trump basically insulted the whole lot. He demanded the owners take action against those who kneeled and called them SOBs. Now it's become a matter of team unity, working as one. All the players share a common enemy, the person still insulting them two days later while taking the better part of a week to acknowledge what's going on in Puerto Rico (and insulting them in the process as well).

I originally agreed that the kneeling was the wrong forum to protest the mistreatment of blacks because (to me) the flag represents all of us. All 325 million Americans. But then Trump made it political. Honestly, I half-expected him to try to rescind the NFL's anti-trust exemption, but I'm guessing someone in his admin (Kelly, most likely) told him that would be a cut-and-dry impeachable offense.

Trump's approval ratings would go up at least 15% if he just STFU and stayed off of Twitter.

Football is most popular in the Midwest and the South. Likely most of the conservatives who agree with his SOB comments are in the Midwest and the South. Trump won the election with solid support from the Midwest and the South. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Calculated pandering to his base.

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Knixon said:

@M. LeMarchand said:

@Knixon said:

A goal to aspire to, doesn't have to be already 100% in place in order to be respected.

The fact that it's still not in place after nearly a century is a bit worrying, though.

Whilst I agree with whoever it was who pointed out that every time a police officer shoots a black person we get BLM protests, but gang members seem to forget that BLM when shooting each other, I also agree that there is a lot of racism in the US and understand the protests. In all the pictures I've seen, it's been hard to spot a white player kneeling which surely speaks to the fact that raising awareness of racism is still needed.

Unless maybe the white players realize it's actually just self-promoting claptrap. How many of those multimillionaires have opened a youth center in their home towns, versus how many have million-dollar chandeliers in their mansions?

Well, nearly a century in the overall scheme of things isn't that long. And it might help if people looked around the world a bit too, and realized that as bad as they might think it (still) is here, it's much worse in much of the world. They've had just as much time to get stuff right, even longer really if you figure the US has only existed for just over 200 years. Japan is a very racist place, they've been pretty much the same country and people for millennia. What's THEIR excuse?

The US was one of the first places to eliminate slavery. Some parts of the world, especially some muslim parts, still have slavery. (Which is one reason it's... amusing... how many "African americans" embrace islam. Muslim countries were among the biggest slave sellers in the past. Partly because they figured non-muslims didn't have any rights.)

Your conclusions never follow the previous statement. It's syllogism, nonsense or not on topic. What does being Muslim have to do with supporting slavery? Why do you put African Americans in quotes and what does any of it have to do with the thread topic?

Everything you say sounds like you copied it from Glenn Beck's diary.

Did you miss the part about Muslim countries - in Africa - being a big part of the slave trade, selling their own people and conquered neighbors into slavery? And that some muslim countries practice slavery even today? Black athletes and prisoners - lots of muslim recruiting in prisons - embracing islam out of some idea of "solidarity" or "path to freedom" or whatever, makes about as much sense as jews embracing naziism. And most "African americans" in this country have even less of a connection to Africa than I do to Ireland or Scotland or Germany. Meanwhile Charlize Theron was actually born in Africa, that makes her more African-American than most black athletes. But the very term is turning into PC nonsense anyway. A while back I watched some Olympics events, and the American TV announcers kept referring to black athletes competing from Guyana or whatever as "African-American." Ridiculous. But they just can't help themselves.

Bring back Rosanne Barr. She does the anthem right.

I thought this put it well too:

These colors don’t run (or pass or punt)

by Tarzana Joe

Team loyalty, it seems

Is more a myst’ry than a science

Who knows why I’m devoted

To the New York Football Giants

Is it just about proximity

To what were our home towns

That Duane roots for the Raiders

And Hugh bleeds for the Browns

I was born three feet from Flushing

So, if you had placed your bets

You likely would have guessed

I pledged allegiance to the Jets

When I lived on the island

They really liked to throw

And I had a lot in common

With a quarterback named Joe

Well, we mostly know we’re doomed

Before the year’s campaign begins

For when the season’s over

Only one team wins

They fire the best players

And hire the worst coaches

Concession stands at stadia

Are filled with mice and roaches

Despite the yearly horrors

They routinely put is through

We tune in every Sunday

And we cheer for what they do

We trust they’ll do analysis

And figure out the reason

That last year went so miserably

And this will be the season

So even if we understand

We’re in this till it hurts

We’ll wear their fancy logos

On our hats and on our shirts

Now, if you read between the lines

You’ll understand I’m saying

Our flag is like the logo

For which all of us are playing

And though I might acknowledge

That we got a few things wrong

I think we should be standing

When the band takes up the song

We rise despite the failings

That may dim a nation’s worth

To share the aspirations

Of the last, best hope of Earth

@Knixon said:

I thought this put it well too:

These colors don’t run (or pass or punt)

by Tarzana Joe

So Football is America and America is Football ? Makes sense in a way. And anything that interrupts equation is trouble with a capitol T and that rhymes with P and that stands for Patriotism. I think this all started with all those fancy and foreign foods you can get at the concession stand. None of this jibber jabber when all you could get was hotdogs and peanuts at the old ball park.

That sounds more like baseball than football, but okay. I actually care not one particle for any kind of "professional sports," it has nothing to do with the actual quality of one's city of residence or whatever. But for those who do (somehow) think stuff like football is important, it's important for that reason among others, and the solidarity should come first.

P.S. I tried to do a better job with the poem's layout but the auto-formatting "features" (I'd call them bugs) of this site made it impossible.

@censorshipsucks06 said: Lastly, for those who are in the crowd explaining how this isn't disrespectful, I can say this: Yes, it's your right to peacefully protest. But if you have to continually explain to millions why you're not being disrespectful - you're being disrespectful

Perfect.

@Knixon said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Knixon said:

@M. LeMarchand said:

@Knixon said:

A goal to aspire to, doesn't have to be already 100% in place in order to be respected.

The fact that it's still not in place after nearly a century is a bit worrying, though.

Whilst I agree with whoever it was who pointed out that every time a police officer shoots a black person we get BLM protests, but gang members seem to forget that BLM when shooting each other, I also agree that there is a lot of racism in the US and understand the protests. In all the pictures I've seen, it's been hard to spot a white player kneeling which surely speaks to the fact that raising awareness of racism is still needed.

Unless maybe the white players realize it's actually just self-promoting claptrap. How many of those multimillionaires have opened a youth center in their home towns, versus how many have million-dollar chandeliers in their mansions?

Well, nearly a century in the overall scheme of things isn't that long. And it might help if people looked around the world a bit too, and realized that as bad as they might think it (still) is here, it's much worse in much of the world. They've had just as much time to get stuff right, even longer really if you figure the US has only existed for just over 200 years. Japan is a very racist place, they've been pretty much the same country and people for millennia. What's THEIR excuse?

The US was one of the first places to eliminate slavery. Some parts of the world, especially some muslim parts, still have slavery. (Which is one reason it's... amusing... how many "African americans" embrace islam. Muslim countries were among the biggest slave sellers in the past. Partly because they figured non-muslims didn't have any rights.)

Your conclusions never follow the previous statement. It's syllogism, nonsense or not on topic. What does being Muslim have to do with supporting slavery? Why do you put African Americans in quotes and what does any of it have to do with the thread topic?

Everything you say sounds like you copied it from Glenn Beck's diary.

Did you miss the part about Muslim countries - in Africa - being a big part of the slave trade, selling their own people and conquered neighbors into slavery? And that some muslim countries practice slavery even today? Black athletes and prisoners - lots of muslim recruiting in prisons - embracing islam out of some idea of "solidarity" or "path to freedom" or whatever, makes about as much sense as jews embracing naziism. And most "African americans" in this country have even less of a connection to Africa than I do to Ireland or Scotland or Germany. Meanwhile Charlize Theron was actually born in Africa, that makes her more African-American than most black athletes. But the very term is turning into PC nonsense anyway. A while back I watched some Olympics events, and the American TV announcers kept referring to black athletes competing from Guyana or whatever as "African-American." Ridiculous. But they just can't help themselves.

Again disjointed nonsense.

I'm sorry if your comprehension is limited to simple ideas like "See Spot Run." But since you've only recently been to college and it's not nearly as rigorous as it used to be, I'm not really surprised.