@ArcticFox12 said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

The answer to racial divide is not to engage in divisive actions that you know infuriate a huge segment of the population, like disrespecting the Flag and/or National Anthem. If you think a person is being disrespectful, and you want respect, the way to receive it is NOT to spit in their face. You know what that causes? A fight.

This Anthem protest has gone on long enough. It's time to knock it off and do something productive if you really give a crap.

If you support sitting, taking a knee, or boycotting the National Anthem - please tell me, SPECIFICALLY, what it is you want changed. Because this "raising awareness" reason is complete and utter BS. Everyone is aware of what people are ticked about. So now you have the podium. I'm all ears. Tell me specifically what you want changed. Because what it appears to me is, people want bigotry to go away, or what they perceive as bigotry. I've got news for you, you're not just asking, you are begging to be disappointed. You aren't changing how anyone FEELS or THINKS. Not with these actions. Not like this. What this has devolved into is, every time any minority member of society is killed by a police officer, it's an automatic pivot to 'racism'. That kind of absolutism and default judgement is simply absurd and is fueling more problems than it's solving. And it is, in fact, another form of prejudice. Because you are pre-judging the situation. Engaging the the very behavior you hope to eliminate isn't the route to take. But in any event, please - tell me specifically what the goal here is. Because for people who claim to be fighting against 'divisiveness', you really couldn't act more divisive if you tried.

For me, the Flag was draped over my Father's casket. It was folded and given to my Mother by active Servicemen, and it is now with me. I will ALWAYS STAND and respect the Flag and The National Anthem. That's my take.

Again - if we want to work on things - let's get SPECIFIC. Because, again, what's being done now is creating another problem and more divisiveness, not solving those problems.

Lastly, for those who are in the crowd explaining how this isn't disrespectful, I can say this: Yes, it's your right to peacefully protest. But if you have to continually explain to millions why you're not being disrespectful - you're being disrespectful

Censorship, once again great response, very detailed and insightful.

A lot of what you said I agree with especially the parts about automatic pivots to racism. I do think there are some issues with police letting thier preconceived ideas about minorities itch thier trigger finger in tense situations but I also believe a lot of those incidents are completely unrelated to race . Police brutality appears to be the main reason for these protests but if we're being completely transparent here, most of these athletes are kneeling now because it's a trend or because Trump insulted them and called them "sons of bitches".

The raising awareness excuse is a smokescreen. My Irish/English family is as patriotic as they come and none of us would ever kneel for the anthem. To me that anthem represents the changes we wish to see made in this country so we take those few minutes when the anthem is played to appreciate that .

Do you know the history of the Irish when they first came to this country? They were treated like animals, called vermin, rapists, etc., signs everywhere that said 'No Irish need apply'. Racism is everywhere still in 2017. We need to come together as a country to fight racism/bigotry no matter if it is against blacks, hispanics, asians, jews, gays. I think a lot of people forget what the anthem & POA is supposed to mean, "With liberty and justice for all". That is why I protest, because people forget that.

A goal to aspire to, doesn't have to be already 100% in place in order to be respected.

Are we not supposed to say "with liberty and justice for all" as long as North Korea is the way it is?

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Knixon said:

Well the sponsors look at viewer numbers. If the viewer numbers drop because people turn off the TV in disgust, the sponsors have no reason to pour money into the NFL for no benefit to them.

The NFL is a coveted tv product fueled by Gambling. The three highest rated events on television yearly are pretty much always three football games. As long as there are Gambling and fantasy leagues the ratings/veiwership will never decline by any significant level.

They're making more money than they know what to do with, the NFL and Vegas. Sponsors are going nowhere.

And what logical reason do the employers , the owners, have to fire players that are the subject of fantasy and gambling , the very existence of which make the league profitable in the first place?

At least try to make sense, Kerry.

Really? That argument sounds like claiming soldiers must be rich because the military spends trillions of dollars. How much of the TV advertising revenue is coming from betting in Las Vegas? From all the online and offshore gambling too, of all the millions or billions changing hands among gamblers, how much does the NFL get? My guess would be, about squat. The same amount that Hoyle's estate gets from all the card playing there. That might be part of the popularity, but not of the money that goes to the NFL and pays the players. Let alone how much advertisers/sponsors get, the ones who pay for a lot of it to put on TV. How much is Tidy Bowl or whatever, getting from betting in Vegas, that they can channel into paying for ads that fewer and fewer people watch? In this case, it's probably actually true that "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." Except for any cuts taken by gang families in New Jersey or whatever.

I fully expect that a lot of the people who claim to have given up on football don't really mean it, and they'll start watching again when they think nobody will notice or when they can decide "football has been punished enough" or whatever. And because they didn't have much else in their lives to start with. But it doesn't take a very large drop in total revenue for the NFL and the various teams to be in big trouble. When the next TV contracts come up, is when the real effect is likely to be felt. Unless NFL central and the team owners start to see what's coming and make some changes before then. Or if the TV execs demand renegotiation because of falling numbers. I read that viewership this year was already down almost 10% from last year, when this kind of thing was just getting started. The rest of it that's yet to come might be like Hurricane Irma in comparison.

@Knixon said:

A goal to aspire to, doesn't have to be already 100% in place in order to be respected.

The fact that it's still not in place after nearly a century is a bit worrying, though.

Whilst I agree with whoever it was who pointed out that every time a police officer shoots a black person we get BLM protests, but gang members seem to forget that BLM when shooting each other, I also agree that there is a lot of racism in the US and understand the protests. In all the pictures I've seen, it's been hard to spot a white player kneeling which surely speaks to the fact that raising awareness of racism is still needed.

@M. LeMarchand said:

@Knixon said:

A goal to aspire to, doesn't have to be already 100% in place in order to be respected.

The fact that it's still not in place after nearly a century is a bit worrying, though.

Whilst I agree with whoever it was who pointed out that every time a police officer shoots a black person we get BLM protests, but gang members seem to forget that BLM when shooting each other, I also agree that there is a lot of racism in the US and understand the protests. In all the pictures I've seen, it's been hard to spot a white player kneeling which surely speaks to the fact that raising awareness of racism is still needed.

Unless maybe the white players realize it's actually just self-promoting claptrap. How many of those multimillionaires have opened a youth center in their home towns, versus how many have million-dollar chandeliers in their mansions?

Well, nearly a century in the overall scheme of things isn't that long. And it might help if people looked around the world a bit too, and realized that as bad as they might think it (still) is here, it's much worse in much of the world. They've had just as much time to get stuff right, even longer really if you figure the US has only existed for just over 200 years. Japan is a very racist place, they've been pretty much the same country and people for millennia. What's THEIR excuse?

The US was one of the first places to eliminate slavery. Some parts of the world, especially some muslim parts, still have slavery. (Which is one reason it's... amusing... how many "African americans" embrace islam. Muslim countries were among the biggest slave sellers in the past. Partly because they figured non-muslims didn't have any rights.)

@Knixon said:

@CalabrianQueen said:

@Knixon said:

Well the sponsors look at viewer numbers. If the viewer numbers drop because people turn off the TV in disgust, the sponsors have no reason to pour money into the NFL for no benefit to them.

The NFL is a coveted tv product fueled by Gambling. The three highest rated events on television yearly are pretty much always three football games. As long as there are Gambling and fantasy leagues the ratings/veiwership will never decline by any significant level.

They're making more money than they know what to do with, the NFL and Vegas. Sponsors are going nowhere.

And what logical reason do the employers , the owners, have to fire players that are the subject of fantasy and gambling , the very existence of which make the league profitable in the first place?

At least try to make sense, Kerry.

Really? That argument sounds like claiming soldiers must be rich because the military spends trillions of dollars. How much of the TV advertising revenue is coming from betting in Las Vegas? From all the online and offshore gambling too, of all the millions or billions changing hands among gamblers, how much does the NFL get? My guess would be, about squat. The same amount that Hoyle's estate gets from all the card playing there. That might be part of the popularity, but not of the money that goes to the NFL and pays the players. Let alone how much advertisers/sponsors get, the ones who pay for a lot of it to put on TV. How much is Tidy Bowl or whatever, getting from betting in Vegas, that they can channel into paying for ads that fewer and fewer people watch? In this case, it's probably actually true that "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." Except for any cuts taken by gang families in New Jersey or whatever.

I fully expect that a lot of the people who claim to have given up on football don't really mean it, and they'll start watching again when they think nobody will notice or when they can decide "football has been punished enough" or whatever. And because they didn't have much else in their lives to start with. But it doesn't take a very large drop in total revenue for the NFL and the various teams to be in big trouble. When the next TV contracts come up, is when the real effect is likely to be felt. Unless NFL central and the team owners start to see what's coming and make some changes before then. Or if the TV execs demand renegotiation because of falling numbers. I read that viewership this year was already down almost 10% from last year, when this kind of thing was just getting started. The rest of it that's yet to come might be like Hurricane Irma in comparison.

I don't think you actually read or comprehend , you pick what you want to argue against and disregard the rest. Fantasy football is the money maker. Fantasy leagues draw veiwership because people want to see if the players they drafted are playing or not, injured or not etc and adjust their draft strategies accordingly. It's a whole industry in and of itself.

It's not JUST Vegas, Vegas is another cog in the wheel that keeps the whole thing spinning. I don't think you have the slightest clue what fantasy leagues are , their impact on ratings or how much advertising dollars gets poured in to those companies to keep them going strong.

If you know ANYTHING about the NFL you would never downplay the impact of fantasy leagues and parimutuel pools on it's bottom line. You could estimate half the people half the people watching a given game couldn't care less about the outcome save for its fantasy implications.

But go ahead and keep yapping about percentages like you know what you're talking about.

The NFL is not facing any loss over a drop in tv veiwership when streaming and app veiwership are on a meteroic rise, still platforms where people are advertised to. Their profits still increased that year and will for many years to come.

Just a quick search:

NFL Viewership Is Down, But It's Not Because of Trump - The Atlantic

NFL Viewership Is Down 11% This Season As Fans "Take A Knee ...

NFL viewership down and study suggests it's over protests

_NFL ratings are down again this season. Is it time to panic yet? _

TV Ratings: 'Sunday Night Football' Down Again On Day Of Player ...

That final NBC viewership number was down 17% from the official ...

NFL Ratings Are Collapsing: Why? - The Atlantic

@CalabrianQueen said:

Hey foxy, my only regret about getting engaged is that now I can't marry YOU.😝

You're engaged??? CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!

Here's the thing about viewership - with few exceptions, ALL programming is down across the board, especially on broadcast networks. The media does exactly what Nixon does, they slice and dice the numbers and/or facts to fit the story and narrative they are telling. Many people now are watching the NFL on non-Nielson-measurable platforms. Pointing to the media's take on this is a joke. There may be a very few people who won't watch anymore, or until the protest ends. But the NFL is swimming in cash. More so than any other sport, professional or college. What drives viewership more than anything is the match-ups. When they are crummy, the ratings go down. Poor scheduling has more to do with ratings than anything. Scheduling ten 1PM games vs three 4PM games is a big issue. Thursday night games usually SUCK, and are terrible match ups, and more times than not are divisional match ups, which in and of itself limits interest and viewership to an extent. The NFL has been a huge part of my life, and as Erica points out, I'm in for both Fantasy and gambling. I make a boatload of cash on the NFL every year, and I'm not going anywhere. I, like most people, can disagree with what the minority of players are engaging in, and still watch the game I love. I'm too invested in it to bail. These players that are protesting, although I completely disagree with how they are doing it, are doing it because they want to see conditions improve. The only way they lose me is if they stand up and just overall state "America SUCKS - WE HATE AMERICAN AND ALL IT STANDS FOR!". They aren't doing that. What they are doing is mistaken in the fact that instead of promoting the unity around the subject they seek - it creates more division. I'm not walking away from the NFL because a few of their players are stupid. I've known that for a long time.

Erica wrote "I don't think you actually read or comprehend , you pick what you want to argue against and disegard the rest." As usual, she's spot on.

Personally I think the players are mistaken because they picked one of the very few things that actually DO unite people in this country, and they chose that to focus their protest on that. *I think if they unveiled a banner and stood united on the field ASAP after the game is over, when the camera's are actually running (99% of the time they don't show the Anthem on TV) instead of acting like the Pharisees and getting in their "prayer circle", they'd get a much more meaningful point across to people. That would be powerful, and you'd likely get close to 100% participation by players and coaches. * These players need to think a little, and not follow a bad knee-jerk reaction by a has been like Collin Kaepernick.

Also, Nixon writes about "How many of those multimillionaires have opened a youth center in their home towns, versus how many have million-dollar chandeliers in their mansions?" How many of these players are working in the communities with their police departments to try and build a bridge? There are community outreach programs galore in most communities. Some of the players engage in those, but most are seeking what night clubs they can get to ASAP after the games and practices are over. Taking a knee during a song is easy. I'm looking for meaningful action on the topic. But this is just like when they wear pink in October to ostensibly 'Raise Awareness" for breast cancer. Seriously - who's NOT aware of breast cancer??? And the NFL makes money hand over fist selling 'pink everything', giving very little of it to cancer research.

@Knixon said:

Unless maybe the white players realize it's actually just self-promoting claptrap. How many of those multimillionaires have opened a youth center in their home towns, versus how many have million-dollar chandeliers in their mansions?

Maybe. OTH, how do we know what they contribute to? I'm just that (for example) one site I visit makes a big song and dance about female/transgender/gay empowerment - "It's long been overdue that ST had a gay character" - when I'm pretty sure that they just want to be seen to be inclusive rather than REALLY caring about it. That's why I'm surprised that none(?) of the white players show solidarity.

@Knixon said:

The US was one of the first places to eliminate slavery.

I seem to remember that there was some sort of disagreement over that. Oh yeah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War. It also seems that there are more than a few Americans who would be happy if the Confederates had won that little argument.

That's why I'm surprised that none(?) of the white players show solidarity.

Some of the white players have shown solidarity. But very few.

One of the reasons is that white people, for the most part, aren't growing up believing the police are their enemy. Here's a personal example. One of my best friends 35 years ago was a black man. He lived nearby. We both had really crummy cars, as neither of us was personally rolling in $$$ at the time. When we'd go into our neighborhood, which was more affluent because we both lived with our folks at the time, we'd occasionally have a police car follow us in, and to our homes. Then drive off. My reaction was "They are following me because I either did something wrong, or because they want to know why this POS car is going into this neighborhood." My friends reaction was "They are following me because I'm black!!!", and he'd get all worked up and furious. He became as angry as a man can become - over virtually nothing but his own perceptions.

I found this reaction from him in many different phases of his life. He felt the football coach yelled at him because he was black. We worked at the same part time job - and whenever he was corrected, it was because he was black. Perception people. He was raised to believe the cops were the racist arm of a white authoritarian power structure. I know this from our many , and sometimes heated, discussions. He also believed that most negative things that happened to him was because he was black. I actually felt sorry for him after a while. It's a classic example of what I call a "Racial-Inferiority Complex". And like all other beliefs, it's not something you are born with. It's something you are taught.

Is there racism? Of course. But to ring that bell whenever anything goes wrong in life is a pathetic way to live. I'm not going to get into the specifics of each or any of these fatal police shootings. But I've worked with many black people and have had several black friends. Most all of them share my older friend's outlook on the police. Right or wrong. And whenever they encounter the police, just for a traffic stop, that automatic anger swelled. And believe me, police officers pick up on that anger. So here we have interactions that are starting out with the emotion of hate and fear manifesting themselves before one word is even uttered. It's not hard to see how escalations take place.

What the discussion needs to be now is how to remedy this situation. The Anthem protest is setting that discussion back - not moving it forward. IMO.

Another way of describing what you describe, is that black people don't have a problem in this area that white people - even/especially police - can fix. So instead of kneeling, maybe they should get to work.

https://www.adrive.com/public/7vMUuB/Hewitt%2007-08-16%20clip%20Hour%204%20Aftershow%20with%20Generalissimo%20Duane%20Patterson.mp3

@censorshipsucks06 said:

Is there racism? Of course. But to ring that bell whenever anything goes wrong in life is a pathetic way to live. I'm not going to get into the specifics of each or any of these fatal police shootings. But I've worked with many black people and have had several black friends. Most all of them share my older friend's outlook on the police. Right or wrong. And whenever they encounter the police, just for a traffic stop, that automatic anger swelled. And believe me, police officers pick up on that anger. So here we have interactions that are starting out with the emotion of hate and fear manifesting themselves before one word is even uttered. It's not hard to see how escalations take place.

What the discussion needs to be now is how to remedy this situation. The Anthem protest is setting that discussion back - not moving it forward. IMO.

I totally agree that "Spike Lee Syndrome" (TM) doesn't help people. Though I think the Anthem Protest isn't just about the perceived racism, but also against a president who doesn't seem to care about it.

Maybe a white president who improves employment etc for everyone including blacks, is actually better than a (half-)black president who made things measurably worse. No matter what your personal opinion of the white president might be.

That Stacy Washington clip I posted earlier has a really excellent message.