How? Not asking for it back, supports my argument. Having her feel indebted to him, gave him an advantage. He also never asked her for chocolates in return, when he was using them to "Train" her. What does THAT prove? Seems to support my point.

There's also a certain level of show-wide inconsistency of course. But Sheldon definitely likes having people do what he wants, and one way to achieve that is to have them owe him money.

What purpose would there have been in making Penny indebted to him if he was not going to ask for anything in return? Sheldon would not have wasted his time on such folly.

Here, Knixon is a scenario where Sheldon did want Penny to be indebted to him:

Sheldon: Hello, Penny. I just stopped by to bring you this gift.

Penny: Gummy bears? Thank you.

Sheldon: Now that you’re in my debt, please manipulate Amy into releasing me from my commitment to attend her aunt’s tedious birthday party.

In this scenario he admitted that he was placing her in his debt and then asked for something in return. In the money scenario he neither mentioned her being in his debt nor asked for anything in return.

The conclusion is that sometimes Sheldon is manipulative and sometimes he is not.

My rock hath crushed thy scissors.

But he doesn't always state his intentions in advance. His expression while loaning Penny the money seems proof enough of that. And the chocolates for that matter. Or for a more indubitably indisputable... ixample... I'll point you to the overdue DVD and the Itchy Sweater.

I get the sense you don't like Sheldor.

I'm one of those people who understands his purpose to the show, but would never have someone like that in their real life.

@Knixon said:

I'm one of those people who understands his purpose to the show, but would never have someone like that in their real life.

Sheldon has definitely been manipulative and extremely selfish many times, but I think even you have to admit that there have been a few times where he has been caring and unselfish. My example of comforting Howard, and numbers 2 and 4 on synchary's list are certainly completely unselfish acts.

@synchary said:

1. He gives a percentage of his invention earnings to Baby Wolowitz.

Sheldon said that was to keep the baby from suffering due to Howard's lack of stature, income, etc. being just an engineer. So while it might seem to be an altruistic kindness, it's really another dig at Howard and MIT.

@synchary said:

1. He arranges a pleasant evening for Bernadette during her pregnancy, even creating a personalised version of Dungeons and Dragons.

This one is tougher, and it's been a while since I've seen that episode. But weren't the others out doing something that somehow excluded Sheldon? So him apparently being nice to Bernadette was maybe his way of showing them that they shouldn't exclude him, that he could be more entertaining - as shown to Bernadette - than they were without him, etc.

There was an episode of the show Charmed, in season 3, titled "Sin Francisco." In it, the sisters and some around them are "infected" (by a demon) with the "Seven Deadly Sins." It was said that in order to free themselves, they must commit a "selfless act." But sister Prue (Shannen Doherty) was infected with "pride," and it's said "There is no selfless act to Pride." Because, anything she might do would be done to show how great SHE is, and so would not actually be selfless.

Sheldon is like that. Anything he does - at least, anything he's done so far - can always be seen as somehow serving HIM.

(And, in case you didn't already know it, Kaley Cuoco joined the cast of Charmed for season 8, their last. Seeing her in that is what got me started watching TBBT.)

@Knixon said:

@synchary said:

1. He gives a percentage of his invention earnings to Baby Wolowitz.

Sheldon said that was to keep the baby from suffering due to Howard's lack of stature, income, etc. being just an engineer. So while it might seem to be an altruistic kindness, it's really another dig at Howard and MIT.

@synchary said:

1. He arranges a pleasant evening for Bernadette during her pregnancy, even creating a personalised version of Dungeons and Dragons.

This one is tougher, and it's been a while since I've seen that episode. But weren't the others out doing something that somehow excluded Sheldon? So him apparently being nice to Bernadette was maybe his way of showing them that they shouldn't exclude him, that he could be more entertaining - as shown to Bernadette - than they were without him, etc.

There was an episode of the show Charmed, in season 3, titled "Sin Francisco." In it, the sisters and some around them are "infected" (by a demon) with the "Seven Deadly Sins." It was said that in order to free themselves, they must commit a "selfless act." But sister Prue (Shannen Doherty) was infected with "pride," and it's said "There is no selfless act to Pride." Because, anything she might do would be done to show how great SHE is, and so would not actually be selfless.

Sheldon is like that. Anything he does - at least, anything he's done so far - can always be seen as somehow serving HIM.

(And, in case you didn't already know it, Kaley Cuoco joined the cast of Charmed for season 8, their last. Seeing her in that is what got me started watching TBBT.)

We will have to agree to disagree, because from what I remember, he gained nothing from his night with Bernie except the chance to spend some time with a friend and the satisfaction of providing her with a fun evening.

And isn't the posit that all acts are selfish, even those that are seemingly altruistic, a long-standing topic of philisophical debate? I dare say no one could be said to be completely unselfish. If you want to argue that Sheldon is perhaps more selfish than some (or most), I would not dispute that, but the OT was to name a time when Sheldon acted in a genuinely kind manner. One can act kindly and still get something out of it.

@Gothish520 said:

And isn't the posit that all acts are selfish, even those that are seemingly altruistic, a long-standing topic of philisophical debate? I dare say no one could be said to be completely unselfish. If you want to argue that Sheldon is perhaps more selfish than some (or most), I would not dispute that, but the OT was to name a time when Sheldon acted in a genuinely kind manner. One can act kindly and still get something out of it.

It makes me smile how on-the-same-page we often are Lady G.  I was thinking very similarly to this yesterday.  I suspect that often there is something to gain from kindness that we show, but it makes the action no less kind.

  And to Knixon: For me the basic take-away from this thread (and really something that I knew going into it) is that Sheldon’s actions are frequently selfish and self-serving, but they are peppered with moments of kindness which generally delight the audience because they are somewhat contrary to his usual behavior.  We must remember that he was raised by Mary Cooper, who no doubt did her best to instill some kindness into her ultra-smart little boy.

@Lemons said:

And to Knixon: For me the basic take-away from this thread (and really something that I knew going into it) is that Sheldon’s actions are frequently selfish and self-serving, but they are peppered with moments of kindness which generally delight the audience because they are somewhat contrary to his usual behavior.  We must remember that he was raised by Mary Cooper, who no doubt did her best to instill some kindness into her ultra-smart little boy.

Well said, my new favorite libation (well...strawberry lemonade but whatevs). Even Darth Vader had a moment once. Just ask his son.

Nobody is trying to say Sheldon is a saint, but he isn't a 24/7 sinner, either. I gotta be honest, I'd have a harder time coming up with 10 for Raj than I would Sheldon.

Sheldon may do things that have a... "result of kindness?" But is that actually why he does them? Would he have - COULD HE have, given his psyche - made the financial arrangement for Howard and Bernadette's child, WITHOUT insulting Howard (and MIT) yet again? I don't think so. And indeed, rather than just saying something like "engineers aren't real scientists and MIT is just a trade school" yet again, it's actually the MONEY that makes it a REAL insult.

I also tend to disagree about the mother stuff. If Sheldon only did "kind" things because of his mother, that's not really selfless either. It would be more like Forrest Gump just carrying out his "programming" without actual understanding.

@MurphAndTheMagicTones said:

Nobody is trying to say Sheldon is a saint, but he isn't a 24/7 sinner, either. I gotta be honest, I'd have a harder time coming up with 10 for Raj than I would Sheldon.

Early on, Raj was more selfish, but he's been doing a lot of babysitting for Halley etc, which Sheldon would never do. Well, maybe if it gave him more opportunities to insult Howard. But again, then it wouldn't really be "kindness."

@Knixon said:

How? Not asking for it back, supports my argument. **Having her feel indebted to him, gave him an advantage. **He also never asked her for chocolates in return, when he was using them to "Train" her. What does THAT prove? Seems to support my point.

There's also a certain level of show-wide inconsistency of course. But Sheldon definitely likes having people do what he wants, and one way to achieve that is to have them owe him money.

What advantage?

As for the "chocolates"; why would he ask her for chocolates in return when she never asked him for chocolates in he first place.

What...

You give someone something of your own free will that they've never asked you for and then ask them for something in return!?

What...

When someone comes to your house and you give them a cup of tea you expect them to give you a tea bag in return!?

Sheldon, out of kindness and concerned for Penny plight, gave her a loan, with no expectations other than she'd pay it back when she could. To argue otherwise contradicts what was seen and what was heard in the episode.

@FormerlyKnownAs said:

As for the "chocolates"; why would he ask her for chocolates in return when she never asked him for chocolates in he first place.

The point there was, he wasn't giving her chocolates out of KINDNESS.

What...

You give someone something of your own free will that they've never asked you for and then ask them for something in return!?

Again, it wasn't out of KINDNESS.

What...

When someone comes to your house and you give them a cup of tea you expect them to give you a tea bag in return!?

"It's a non-optional social construct." Remember, Sheldon came with a manual. He doesn't really do that out of kindness, it's an obligation he's been programmed with, either by his mother or himself. NOT doing it would give HIM the "itchy brain" again. So it's not difficult to argue that, in such cases, Sheldon does them for HIS OWN benefit, not the other person's. Which tends to cancel out the "kindness" aspect.

When NORMAL people do things like that, it's fairly easy to make a case for "kindness." But Sheldon is not a normal person.

Sheldon, out of kindness and concerned for Penny plight, gave her a loan, with no expectations other than she'd pay it back when she could. To argue otherwise contradicts what was seen and what was heard in the episode.

Apparently all she - or anyone else - ever had to do was ask. That was one of the episodes where Sheldon has money lying around that he doesn't even think about, apparently just to set up a particular situation or joke, versus all the rest of the time when money is tight and like in the pilot episode they're planning to sell their sperm to afford faster internet. (Or in the unaired pilot, when it was how they could afford takeout food.) Leonard even said that Sheldon doesn't care about money, etc, it was Penny who took it as a "kindness" but she's one of those normal people. Sheldon isn't.

@synchary said:

@Lemons said:

I'm just curious. Is it possible to come up with a list of 10 times when Sheldon was genuinely kind?

1.The time Sheldon went into Penny's bedroom and asked her not to hurt his friend when she was considering breaking up with Leonard.

Lemons, there are a number of instances, so if we are permitted more than one per poster, I'll add these to the already excellent examples...

1. He willingly lends Penny however much she needs to pay her rent and other expenses.

2. He gives a percentage of his invention earnings to Baby Wolowitz.

3. He is extremely attentive to Amy when she has the flu.

4. He arranges a pleasant evening for Bernadette during her pregnancy, even creating a personalised version of Dungeons and Dragons.

5. He goes out of his way to make Dr. Plimpton's visit comfortable.

6. Despite their mutual disdain for the practice, he sends Beverly flowers after her surgery.

7. He ensures the success of Penny's hair ornament enterprise by streamlining it and enlisting the help of the other chaps.

8. He "sacrifices" himself so the team can win the paintball tournament.

9. Despite being terrified and inexperienced, he drives Penny to the Emergency Room. (One presumes she rejects his entirely sensible suggestion of a taxi for creative and comedic reasons.)

10. He saves Leonard from certain death by disposing of a rocket in the elevator. He further spares Leonard by keeping the information from the landlord and security agencies.

Other examples are his genuine concern about Leonard's septum surgery during an earthquake, and his anger at Jimmy Speckerman, Leonard's childhood bully.

I think I could disagree on number 9. I could see him at the hospital all shaking and stressed out and somebody says: "You could have called a taxi." very long pause. " I hadn't thought of that."