Well, it is out there that Jon Bernthal and Scott Wilson will be doing cameos this season, so I think we can expect to see Shane and Herschel show up. I REALLY want to see a Glenn send off for Rick. I don't think his story is complete without a final farewell from his right hand man.

I don't miss that punk Shane one lick and I hope he gets whacked again in the vision. Every time he was rejected, he'd take his frustrations out on others (Ed, Herschel's barn...) What kind of "friend" tells his so-called friend that he's better for the guy's wife while plotting to kill him?

No one bother trying to argue in his defence to me - there is no defending his selfish, immature, back-stabbing BS.

F that punk.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I don't miss that punk Shane one lick and I hope he gets whacked again in the vision. Every time he was rejected, he'd take his frustrations out on others (Ed, Herschel's barn...) What kind of "friend" tells his so-called friend that he's better for the guy's wife while plotting to kill him?

No one bother trying to argue in his defence to me - there is no defending his selfish, immature, back-stabbing BS.

F that punk.

LOL, don't worry, no defense of Shane here. That guy had poor character for sure, let his lust and envy over-ride his loyalty to his friend. With all the women looking for a strong man in the apocalypse he couldn't find a nice hottie for himself? I know he thought Rick was dead and all, but once he showed up again, his loyalty to his friend should have been there. He should have fessed up to everything and made a clean break. But enough about that.

I was ready for Rick to be gone when he let Negan live. How many times did he promise to kill him? How many times did he tell everyone he was going to kill Negan? And who deserved to die more than Negan? It doesn't really even matter if Rick's reasoning for keeping him alive was valid (and it wasn't), he proved to everyone that you can't believe him no matter how forcefully, how often, how intensely he promises something when he let Negan live. He ruined his credibility as a leader when he did that. And Negan's followers saw weakness in Rick. They all knew that Negan was a sociopathic, terrorizing, dictator guilty of the worst sorts of torture and crimes. They feared him as much as anyone. They knew Negan deserved to die better than most. Nobody would have faulted Rick for killing him during the heat of battle, when Negan was leading an assault against Rick and the gang.
For Rick to wimp out at the last moment, and come up with his rationale about how killing him would send the wrong message, or invite retaliation or something (I don't recall his statements at that time now) sent the worst message to both sides he could have sent. They wouldn't even have faulted him for holding Negan for a trial and executing him afterward. That would have shown there was a beginning of a justice system, a new civilization. But simply putting him in a cell was stupid. (I immediately thought of the old spy movies where the 'hero' is captured by the evil genius, and put in an overly complicated, slow death contraption or set up, and then left to die alone. Of course the hero always escapes and comes back to defeat the evil genius. I thought 'leaving Negan alive now is the dumbest thing Rick could do'.)

I think Rick will see his family in his vision, and some of the others who have gone on before him. I think Glenn will be in the vision. Will Shane be there? (And if he is, will he be cuckolding Rick with his wife? LOL Sorry.) Well, after Rick let Negan live, who knows what will happen? Maybe Shane will be playing a guitar and singing Kum Bah Yah with an angelic smile on his face. Anything is possible at this point.

Maybe Carl will be there with another letter, this one telling him that his first letter was a big mistake, that Rick should have killed Negan and sent the message that murderous, torturing, dictators don't get a pass. That would be nice.

@write2topcat said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I don't miss that punk Shane one lick and I hope he gets whacked again in the vision. Every time he was rejected, he'd take his frustrations out on others (Ed, Herschel's barn...) What kind of "friend" tells his so-called friend that he's better for the guy's wife while plotting to kill him?

No one bother trying to argue in his defence to me - there is no defending his selfish, immature, back-stabbing BS.

F that punk.

LOL, don't worry, no defense of Shane here. That guy had poor character for sure, let his lust and envy over-ride his loyalty to his friend. With all the women looking for a strong man in the apocalypse he couldn't find a nice hottie for himself? I know he thought Rick was dead and all, but once he showed up again, his loyalty to his friend should have been there. He should have fessed up to everything and made a clean break. But enough about that.

I was ready for Rick to be gone when he let Negan live. How many times did he promise to kill him? How many times did he tell everyone he was going to kill Negan? And who deserved to die more than Negan? It doesn't really even matter if Rick's reasoning for keeping him alive was valid (and it wasn't), he proved to everyone that you can't believe him no matter how forcefully, how often, how intensely he promises something when he let Negan live. He ruined his credibility as a leader when he did that. And Negan's followers saw weakness in Rick. They all knew that Negan was a sociopathic, terrorizing, dictator guilty of the worst sorts of torture and crimes. They feared him as much as anyone. They knew Negan deserved to die better than most. Nobody would have faulted Rick for killing him during the heat of battle, when Negan was leading an assault against Rick and the gang.
For Rick to wimp out at the last moment, and come up with his rationale about how killing him would send the wrong message, or invite retaliation or something (I don't recall his statements at that time now) sent the worst message to both sides he could have sent. They wouldn't even have faulted him for holding Negan for a trial and executing him afterward. That would have shown there was a beginning of a justice system, a new civilization. But simply putting him in a cell was stupid. (I immediately thought of the old spy movies where the 'hero' is captured by the evil genius, and put in an overly complicated, slow death contraption or set up, and then left to die alone. Of course the hero always escapes and comes back to defeat the evil genius. I thought 'leaving Negan alive now is the dumbest thing Rick could do'.)

I think Rick will see his family in his vision, and some of the others who have gone on before him. I think Glenn will be in the vision. Will Shane be there? (And if he is, will he be cuckolding Rick with his wife? LOL Sorry.) Well, after Rick let Negan live, who knows what will happen? Maybe Shane will be playing a guitar and singing Kum Bah Yah with an angelic smile on his face. Anything is possible at this point.

Maybe Carl will be there with another letter, this one telling him that his first letter was a big mistake, that Rick should have killed Negan and sent the message that murderous, torturing, dictators don't get a pass. That would be nice.

The rationale for keeping Negan alive is simple, if you kill him, then you make him into a Martyr, turning him into a cult figure, causing his followers to fight more, if you keep him alive and isolated, he will die in obscurity and forgotten, aside from his followers. I do agree, if they wanted to restart the civilization, they needed to establish laws and a court system, perhaps base it on the Constitution and have a trial. I think they have been living this harsh life for a couple years now, so maybe laws went out the window, until they realized they needed them after Maggie executed Gregory.

I think Lori would have worked better than Sasha, after all that was Rick's wife, Sasha was someone who he met along the way. I think it would have been more powerful if they had her there instead of Sasha. I guess the actress, Sarah Wayne Callies, wasn't available at the time to make a guest appearance.

@write2topcat said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I don't miss that punk Shane one lick and I hope he gets whacked again in the vision. Every time he was rejected, he'd take his frustrations out on others (Ed, Herschel's barn...) What kind of "friend" tells his so-called friend that he's better for the guy's wife while plotting to kill him?

No one bother trying to argue in his defence to me - there is no defending his selfish, immature, back-stabbing BS.

F that punk.

LOL, don't worry, no defense of Shane here. That guy had poor character for sure, let his lust and envy over-ride his loyalty to his friend. With all the women looking for a strong man in the apocalypse he couldn't find a nice hottie for himself? I know he thought Rick was dead and all, but once he showed up again, his loyalty to his friend should have been there. He should have fessed up to everything and made a clean break. But enough about that.

I was ready for Rick to be gone when he let Negan live. How many times did he promise to kill him? How many times did he tell everyone he was going to kill Negan? And who deserved to die more than Negan? It doesn't really even matter if Rick's reasoning for keeping him alive was valid (and it wasn't), he proved to everyone that you can't believe him no matter how forcefully, how often, how intensely he promises something when he let Negan live. He ruined his credibility as a leader when he did that. And Negan's followers saw weakness in Rick. They all knew that Negan was a sociopathic, terrorizing, dictator guilty of the worst sorts of torture and crimes. They feared him as much as anyone. They knew Negan deserved to die better than most. Nobody would have faulted Rick for killing him during the heat of battle, when Negan was leading an assault against Rick and the gang.
For Rick to wimp out at the last moment, and come up with his rationale about how killing him would send the wrong message, or invite retaliation or something (I don't recall his statements at that time now) sent the worst message to both sides he could have sent. They wouldn't even have faulted him for holding Negan for a trial and executing him afterward. That would have shown there was a beginning of a justice system, a new civilization. But simply putting him in a cell was stupid. (I immediately thought of the old spy movies where the 'hero' is captured by the evil genius, and put in an overly complicated, slow death contraption or set up, and then left to die alone. Of course the hero always escapes and comes back to defeat the evil genius. I thought 'leaving Negan alive now is the dumbest thing Rick could do'.)

I think Rick will see his family in his vision, and some of the others who have gone on before him. I think Glenn will be in the vision. Will Shane be there? (And if he is, will he be cuckolding Rick with his wife? LOL Sorry.) Well, after Rick let Negan live, who knows what will happen? Maybe Shane will be playing a guitar and singing Kum Bah Yah with an angelic smile on his face. Anything is possible at this point.

Maybe Carl will be there with another letter, this one telling him that his first letter was a big mistake, that Rick should have killed Negan and sent the message that murderous, torturing, dictators don't get a pass. That would be nice.

Well, I'm happy to admit the Shane scene was excellent. Shane was Shane, Rick was Rick, and the tragedy of their destroyed friendship was captured splendidly. Kudos to the writers for nailing it.

I'd have liked to have seen either Morgan or Glenn back - the two who were there from the very beginning. But Sasha was a nice touch.

And getting Hershel in before Scott Wilson died was beautiful.

Well, I'm happy to admit the Shane scene was excellent. Shane was Shane, Rick was Rick, and the tragedy of their destroyed friendship was captured splendidly. Kudos to the writers for nailing it.

I'd have liked to have seen either Morgan or Glenn back - the two who were there from the very beginning. But Sasha was a nice touch.

And getting Hershel in before Scott Wilson died was beautiful.

I am playing catch up, watching it 'on demand'. I guess I should have caught up before posting. I may have more to say after I see that episode. I actually wasn't sure I would keep watching after the end of last season. I just started looking at the recorded episodes.

@Drew007 said:

The rationale for keeping Negan alive is simple, if you kill him, then you make him into a Martyr, turning him into a cult figure, causing his followers to fight more, if you keep him alive and isolated, he will die in obscurity and forgotten, aside from his followers. I do agree, if they wanted to restart the civilization, they needed to establish laws and a court system, perhaps base it on the Constitution and have a trial. I think they have been living this harsh life for a couple years now, so maybe laws went out the window, until they realized they needed them after Maggie executed Gregory.

Perhaps he would have been a martyr to some. But I can't buy that rationale as being very valid. I doubt many of his group actually liked him; they just feared him. A few of his lieutenants were also sociopaths who were tentatively loyal to him, but mostly because they enjoyed the perks and the power. And Rick and company knew this from those who had been on the inside. He wasn't the leader of some noble cause. He was a sociopath, a brutal murderer, and a dictator. People didn't mourn for Mussolini or Hitler. Everyone knew that Negan deserved to die. If he had died in that battle it would have been absolutely legal and just. But I understand the writers wanted Rick to spare him and gave that reasoning. After Carl's sappy letter it wasn't really a surprise when Negan was spared, but it was still a let down.

When Rick made his speech, with his warning to Negan's crowd not to continue in Negan's footsteps, or they would pay, saying "I Promise you that" (might not be exact quote) I had to laugh.

How could anyone not laugh? How many times did Rick promise to kill Negan in the same way? If there was one thing Rick was absolutely emphatic about, one thing he was absolutely going to do come hell or high water, it was that he was going to kill Negan. He Promised that, time and again. Then at the moment of truth he thought (wait a minute, some people might not like me killing this murderous thug in our fight to the death. hmmm, no I better let him live so they don't get mad).
Of course after the fighting had stopped, then it may have been seen as wrong to execute him without some sort of trial, a military tribunal or sorts at least. But if Negan had been killed in battle I think nearly everyone would have been cool with it. Rick offered reconciliation to the others, showing himself to be a different sort of person, someone they could deal with. The majority of them wouldn't want to return to life under Negan.

Yeah, they need to establish some kind of justice system. The rule of law is one of the basics of civilization, that which allows for peaceful resolution of conflicts. Without it, you're left with a "might makes right" system like Negan had, warring tribes, and so on.

Glad to see Jon Bernthal! Thought Sasha was random like I can't even remember them interacting much, would have loved to see Glenn - he's the one who brought Rick into the group and deserved one more scene together. For sure Maggie will be so mad if she ever finds out that Glenn wasn't in Rick's visions lol

My guess is that Steven Yuen wasn't available. I'm sure they would have liked him to be there. It was great to have Scott Wilson, so poignant knowing that he has passed recently.

I just watched the episode. I like the scene of Hershel and Rick in the barn. It's a nod to the spiritual belief of the reward for a life well lived. That is something I am absolutely certain of. I used to simply think it was true. Not trying to convince anyone here, just saying I like the scene because it reflects a truth believed by many, and a nice thought indeed.
I always like Sasha. She was one of my favorites. I liked her personality and also think she is an attractive lady. She has that something. It was nice to see her make an appearance. The way the writers wrote the scene with Maggie and Negan would seem to justify Rick's decision. Writers can make characters do anything they like of course, and the way they wrote Negan in that scene certainly explains why Maggie chose not to kill him. I don't think someone like Negan would have broken like that from his short time in jail. He wasn't in solitary confinement; he had visitors daily even though they didn't stay long. His force of personality was too strong. But it is plausible and it served to satisfy Maggie so that was good in a way. But I don't expect him to remain a broken man. I'll bet we will see him get free somehow someday. And I wouldn't expect him to be a reformed person. lol

The self sacrifice scene of Rick on the bridge was well written. It was in keeping with most of what we saw of Rick throughout the last nine years, his concern for and efforts toward protecting those in his group. The medivac scene was a big surprise. That was a very smart move. It leaves open the possibility that Rick Grimes could make a return to the show in some capacity at some point. Maybe at the series finale?