One could argue that Eugene knows he's not Darryl and cannot standup to Negan...so he bided his time until his brillence could turn the tables on Negan.

@Raymondoz2007 said:

One could argue that Eugene knows he's not Darryl and cannot standup to Negan...so he bided his time until his brillence could turn the tables on Negan.

Yea I can see that. He did say it was what Rosita said to him that changed his plan though. The whole time I was second guessing his intentions and he did help out Sasha so it's possible he was secretly on Rick's side but he was being smart about it and selling it to Negan that he was on his side. Maybe So ¯_(ツ)_/¯

@Raymondoz2007 said:

One could argue that Eugene knows he's not Darryl and cannot standup to Negan...so he bided his time until his brillence could turn the tables on Negan.

Yeah, sure. But, two things:

Thing 1 - long before Negan, he was a snivelling, lying, annoying-as-all-get-up, gamer dickhead who put people's lives in danger. This entire show has been built on the premise of people who help each other vs. people who look out for themselves at the expense of others. Think about the character arcs of Morgan, Glenn, Merle, Darryl, Shane, Dale, Andrea, Mich one and so many others defined this tension since s01e01. Think of what we learned about Rick and the nature of his group from how he went back for Merle, went back for Glenn, kept a daily radio vigil for Morgan... Eugene has been a flip-flopping duplicitous dead weight fukc-up upon whom the group spent too much time and energy to never be sure if he could be relied on.

Thing 2 - TWD has gone to the two-faced well too many times long after that well ran dry - well for me, at least. I got real tired of trying to figure out who Dwight was; or who Simon was; or who Eugene was; or who Gabriel was; or who Alexandra's leader's son was; or who the pathetic ass who previously ran Hilltop was; this device cow has been milked dry, her teats are as raw from rubbing as Eugene's palms must be from gaming to and whatever else repressed boys do with their hands while taking a break from gaming.

And now, they are writing, of all people, Maggie AND Daryl as the new inside turn coats?

It's beyond tired - an utter, abject failure of creativity.

The writers would be ashamed of themselves if they had any integrity at all - sadly, integrity is a virtue of which they've proven themselves wholly bereft.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Thing 2 - TWD has gone to the two-faced well too many times long after that well ran dry - well for me, at least. I got real tired of trying to figure out who Dwight was; or who Simon was; or who Eugene was; or who Gabriel was; or who Alexandra's leader's son was; or who the pathetic ass who previously ran Hilltop was; this device cow has been milked dry, her teats are as raw from rubbing as Eugene's palms must be from gaming to and whatever else repressed boys do with their hands while taking a break from gaming.

And now, they are writing, of all people, Maggie AND Daryl as the new inside turn coats?

It's beyond tired - an utter, abject failure of creativity.

The writers would be ashamed of themselves if they had any integrity at all - sadly, integrity is a virtue of which they've proven themselves wholly bereft.

True, these writers are guilty of beating that dead horse, and others, far past the point where many of us care about the narrative anymore. Formulaic? Yeah, I'd say so. There is something to be said for sticking with a winning game plan. But no team succeeds for very long if they run the same play each possession.
The "going to kill Negan" tease, with unlikely escapes, missed opportunities, and inexplicably stupid decisions, has been in play for so long now that, for me, it's painfully predictable. The writers have gone all in on this formula, apparently hoping it will fuel the viewers' desire to see Negan meet his end and boost sagging ratings. And as we have been discussing here and elsewhere, they are applying this formula to other characters as well, e.g. Jared, the longhaired sadistic Negan soldier who finally was killed by walkers as Morgan held him pinned against the bars of a cell. Though we welcomed his end, it was almost anti-climatic after all the stupid, missed opportunities to finish him off.

Seasons 4 and 5 are the most successful for TWD so far, with season 5 taking honors for most viewers. Season 6 saw a slight drop in viewers. But season 7 saw a 20.296% drop in viewers as approximately 2.88 million fewer people tuned in to watch the show. We were introduced to Negan at the end of the season 6 finale, and the show has revolved around Negan, his brutality, attempts to humanize the demon, and failed plots to kill him since that time. All the story arcs since season 7 have revolved around the Negan issue, whereas in the two previous and more successful seasons the story was evolving along less predictable lines.

The figures for season 8 have now been posted and show another 29.98% of viewers stopped watching the show. That means since the series high water mark of 15.78 million viewers in season 5, nearly half the viewers, 49.81%, found something else to do. Those are earth shaking numbers for a hit show. And of the 7.92 million viewers watching season 8, I would venture to guess that a sizable portion of us are just hanging on hoping the show turns around. Having invested so much time in the show already, we want to see how it finally dies.

I wonder if the actors themselves are getting burned out on the show. I keep seeing ads running for the sequel "Fear The Walking Dead" which apparently will feature Morgan as the main protagonist. So I have to wonder, has the show focused so much attention on trying to build up the Negan issue as part of a final push which will see many of the main characters in this show killed off in a series finale? Andrew Lincoln must be getting burned out on this show by now, having done eight seasons with a ninth around the corner. He is now well enough known that he must have plenty of other interesting offers coming his way, as would many of the other main characters. Just how many years does an actor want to play a zombie killer? With viewers abandoning the show in droves, it would make sense to bring it to a close quickly. Better to go out with a bang than a whimper. If the show continues to flounder there may not be many viewers around to see it end. If I were Andrew Lincoln or any of the other mainstay characters I think I would prefer to end the series than watch it continue to bleed viewers.

Diehard TWD fans will have the sequel, correction, spinoff, to feed their habit, with at least one familiar and well liked character in Morgan, and probably at least a few more. Are they starting the spinoff now to get viewers on board before pulling the plug on the original?

I would not be surprised if season 9 is the last for TWD.

It's not a sequel. It's a spin off.

@Bloodshot77 said:

It's not a sequel. It's a spin off.

I stand corrected. Should TWD end after next season I imagine it will pick up many of the viewers who have not already started watching it. I am wondering how closely it will dovetail with TWD

@Je_suis_le_vampire_Lestat said:

I have a feeling Eugene will supply the saviours with dud or trick bullets that blow up in their faces. I still want him to die though, he's way too annoying to live.

I totally saw that coming. From the time he had Negan do that target practice while they took Dwight away. Then I got nervous when Gabriel jumped out of the car. I was thinking...WTF Eugene? But the open field battleground reeled me in again to say...Ahh, he has stepped back into the light.

There was no other way to pull that off without Eugene 's treacherous move. It's not like we didn't know that Negan was gonna go down.

@Nubyan said:

There was no other way to pull that off without Eugene 's treacherous move. It's not like we didn't know that Negan was gonna go down.

I can see how the writers wrote it to look that way. And, having written it as such, sure, I MIGHT be willing to say he's redeemed himself. I really appreciate how Rosie both acknowledged him and got a shot in on him.

But, they took a whole lot of risk writing it to go down that way. I mean, to begin with, they needed him to make bullets. If he'd just stayed with Rick's group, then a Saviors win was not at all guaranteed.

Or, what if he'd been killed by Daryl or Rosie and never had the chance? Not only would the Saviors have been similarly hobbled, but he'd have died before ever having a chance to sabotage the bullets.

And, getting right into the script, the idea to sabotage the bullets was not his master plan from the beginning. Nope, not at all. He had quit Rick's group, he was down with the Saviors, and it was Gabriel's attempt to sabotage the bullets that gave him the idea, which he almost didn't get a chance to do had he not been able to escape Daryl/Rosita anyway.

Which brings me to Gabriel. I've hated that snivelling coward since we first met him. His betrayal at Alexandria cemented my loathing for the likes of him. But, he has come around, to a genuine degree that almost got himself killed a few times. His realignment with Rick's group is now proven and, I suspect, will remain his position for the rest of his arc. So, his redemption was possible and is complete.

Maybe, I should be able to say the same about Eugene. It will be hard. But fair is fair, and I should concede that he's earned it.

But, I swear, if he blinks funny one time, he should be put down once and for all.

@DRDMovieMusings

Father Gabriel's redemption came quite some time ago. I'm surprised that you are just now cutting him some slack...or so it seems. He went from foe to friend when Alexandria was lost when he took baby Judith under his arms to usher her away to safety. That's when Rick finally forgave him.

As for Eugene. I had written him off after the Hilltop doctor was killed and Gabriel was brought back to the Sanctuary. There's been no other single character as cowardice and selfish as Eugene.

At the end of the day, the writers can spin a script in any direction they choose. Therefore, I was not at all concerned about how this season would end and which group of people would come out on top. I was simply waiting to see how they would have it played out. Honestly, there was no real surprise. The only WTF moment for me...as I am sure other viewers, was the Maggie scene at the end. I can wait to see how that plays out in season 9.

@Nubyan said:

@DRDMovieMusings

Father Gabriel's redemption came quite some time ago. I'm surprised that you are just now cutting him some slack...or so it seems. He went from foe to friend when Alexandria was lost when he took baby Judith under his arms to usher her away to safety. That's when Rick finally forgave him.

The character Gabriel has been challenging for me on a couple of fronts. I was, long ago, a theology student, and this guy representing and acting on so many of the things society has come to hate about religion ticked me off. And, as a black man, this show has been, I dunno, curious, in how it has depicted minorities in general, and black men in particular. It's done some really cool things, and then some not-so-cool things (on the whole, I'd say it's been a smidgen better than other shows...but it certainly has its blemishes, that's for sure...but I digress...)

Having said that, I will also recognize that, his having lasted this long as a character is also rather interesting - it's nice to see him flesh out an arc of a more complex character.

As for Eugene. I had written him off after the Hilltop doctor was killed and Gabriel was brought back to the Sanctuary. There's been no other single character as cowardice and selfish as Eugene.

No argument there. None whatsoever.

At the end of the day, the writers can spin a script in any direction they choose. Therefore, I was not at all concerned about how this season would end and which group of people would come out on top. I was simply waiting to see how they would have it played out. Honestly, there was no real surprise. The only WTF moment for me...as I am sure other viewers, was the Maggie scene at the end. I can wait to see how that plays out in season 9.

WTF is right.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

The character Gabriel has been challenging for me on a couple of fronts. I was, long ago, a theology student, and this guy representing and acting on so many of the things society has come to hate about religion ticked me off. And, as a black man, this show has been, I dunno, curious, in how it has depicted minorities in general, and black men in particular. It's done some really cool things, and then some not-so-cool things (on the whole, I'd say it's been a smidgen better than other shows...but it certainly has its blemishes, that's for sure...but I digress...)

Having said that, I will also recognize that, his having lasted this long as a character is also rather interesting - it's nice to see him flesh out an arc of a more complex character.

Theology student, huh? Interesting. Gabriel's faith wasn't an issue for me. In fact, I looked at him simply as a flawed man who was crippled by his fear. His fear caused him to respond in a unfortunate way that caused all of his parishioners to die. That one single act left him alone in a world where the dead walked among the living with one purpose... to consume the flesh of the living. Gabriel was traumatized...and rightly so. Suddenly he's alone and still paralyzed by fear and then guilt.

I loved how they wrote his character and I think he had an amazing arc. He was finally able to let go of his fear as well as forgive himself and still somehow managed to find a balance with his faith.

I didn't see anything negative with how black men are depicted on the show. I'm not a black man so obviously I'm not seeing things from the same perspective. However, I am a black woman. The black men... T-Dog, Noah, Tyreese, Morgan, Ezekiel have been positive in my eyes with strong characters. The Bob character was cool too.

The character Gabriel has been challenging for me on a couple of fronts. I was, long ago, a theology student, and this guy representing and acting on so many of the things society has come to hate about religion ticked me off.

Yeah I went to bible school for a couple of years. For the past couple of decades television scripts have chosen to depict Christians in a negative light generally speaking. I have to hold my nose and try to ignore the hate in order to watch some of the shows. Actually TWD has been much nicer to the Father Gabriel character than many other shows vis a vis how they depict Christians. But TWD started out showing him as almost completely lacking character. He has been redeemed over time. But it is Rick who redeems him in the show. When he speaks about how he has changed he references getting to know Rick as the impetus for his change. They went a little overboard with him at first I thought. Remember how he could not differentiate between violence in self defense and violence in aggression when he first met the group at his church? He judged and condemned them for using violence against that cannibalistic group that was attacking them, viewing any violence as evil, even when in self defense. That is an attitude one hears from gun control advocates usually, but not from religious people (unless they are very far to the left). But anyway, TWD is overall pretty good compared to most shows.

@Raymondoz2007 said:

One could argue that Eugene knows he's not Darryl and cannot standup to Negan...so he bided his time until his brillence could turn the tables on Negan.

Nah, I'm not buying it. He was "all in" against Rick. He wasn't biding his time. What ultimately made him turn against Negan, I don't know. And as for Gabriel, I was sickened by his cowardice when they all first met up. I am on the fence about his "worth" in the community.

@lennonforever said:

@Raymondoz2007 said:

One could argue that Eugene knows he's not Darryl and cannot standup to Negan...so he bided his time until his brillence could turn the tables on Negan.

Nah, I'm not buying it. He was "all in" against Rick. He wasn't biding his time. What ultimately made him turn against Negan, I don't know. And as for Gabriel, I was sickened by his cowardice when they all first met up. I am on the fence about his "worth" in the community.

Yeah, there wasn't anything to indicate that he would side with Rick and company. This was just TWD writers trying to find a way to throw in a surprise twist.
One might reason that what Rosita said got to him. But there was no indication that her words stung him at the time, nor had he given any indication that he was against Negan previously. Once Negan took him in, recognized his value, and provided him with safety and decent living quarters and conditions, he showed all signs of buying into the Negan myth whole hog.
In the past he wore his emotions on his sleeve. So are we now to believe he could so convincingly mask his true feelings and that his affinity for life with Negan was simply a clever acting job? I guess that's what we are expected to think.

@write2topcat: I don't believe Eugene knew what Eugene would do. But there has always been that nagging moral compass that he was always struggling with. It lead him to help the Hilltop doctor escape with Gabriel. It lead him to give Sasha the suicide pills. It lead him to not dime on Dwight when he could have and still save his own ass.

Eugene was always teetering between Rick or Negan. Rick and Co. fought and died for each other. That was Eugene's home and people for far longer than Negan and the Saviors. Negan lived for Negan.

I believe that Eugene saw an opportunity towards the very end of preparation, leading up to the beginning of war. Which is when he decided.

Eugene had fooled and lied to Negan enough times without detection to be trusted by Negan. Therefore, it's not so farfetched that he could fool the viewing audience. Because he fooled you and he fooled me.