But they thought that they had beaten the enemy in their battle already. I mean... I'm no expert on military tactics or anything of the sort, but it didn't seem, uh, super stupid to me. They were ambushed.

Lots of gunfire!

A win for Rick and Co. though a huge loss for the 20 people living at the Kingdom (evidence of the many many budget cuts the show has suffered). Combined, our three main communities have, what? About 100 people in them? They all ought to just move into Alexandria.

Carol made a good move with the gate. Not so great choosing to let the saviors get away. In war you sacrifice people to achieve the objective. That is just how it is. Without the Deus Ex Machina of Rick and Daryl showing up at just the right second... well, you know.

Not as nonsense as last week but still not what it ought to be.

@Satch_the_man said:

But they thought that they had beaten the enemy in their battle already. I mean... I'm no expert on military tactics or anything of the sort, but it didn't seem, uh, super stupid to me. They were ambushed.

They had simply gotten to their destination. No reason to think they had killed off all of Negan's forces on the way there. Yes they survived two ambushes prior, but to think the main objective was abandoned and vulnerable was poor writing. Would have been better if they were in formation, ready for something when the unexpected big guns took most of them out... not standing in the open celebrating how great they were. Carol was the only one who did the right thing.

@Oldnewbie said:

@Satch_the_man said:

But they thought that they had beaten the enemy in their battle already. I mean... I'm no expert on military tactics or anything of the sort, but it didn't seem, uh, super stupid to me. They were ambushed.

They had simply gotten to their destination. No reason to think they had killed off all of Negan's forces on the way there. Yes they survived two ambushes prior, but to think the main objective was abandoned and vulnerable was poor writing. Would have been better if they were in formation, ready for something when the unexpected big guns took most of them out... not standing in the open celebrating how great they were. Carol was the only one who did the right thing.

Agreed. If anything, the last few encounters with Negan shows that the group is unpredictable, has overwhelming numbers, and tends to show up out of nowhere. The last thing you do at that point is assume that you killed everyone. How many times do they have to underestimate the Saviors? I mean, when Rick and company attacked and killed that outpost, they assumed they had won. When Rick was trying to get Maggie to the Hilltop - they were running into Saviors EVERYWHERE, and it cost them Glenn and Abraham. Then, when they had the big battle at the end of last season, they underestimated them again, as they made a deal with the JunkYard Gang. Even though the Kingdom and Hilltop jumped in, Rick and Alexandria took heavy losses. Combine this with the fact Maggie, Rick, and The King KNOW there are .50 caliber machine guns in play. You can't assume they are where you THINK they are. Well, I guess you can, then watch as your entire Kingdom Platoon is chopped to pieces.

The way they were just standing around, 2 Saviors with AK-57's on either side of the woods could have cut down these idiotic Kingdom clowns.

If it wasn't so sad, the final scene from last week with the King just hobbling past his constituency to his apartment, returning from battle with only himself, Carol, and Jerry, would have been laughable.

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@Oldnewbie said:

@Satch_the_man said:

But they thought that they had beaten the enemy in their battle already. I mean... I'm no expert on military tactics or anything of the sort, but it didn't seem, uh, super stupid to me. They were ambushed.

They had simply gotten to their destination. No reason to think they had killed off all of Negan's forces on the way there. Yes they survived two ambushes prior, but to think the main objective was abandoned and vulnerable was poor writing. Would have been better if they were in formation, ready for something when the unexpected big guns took most of them out... not standing in the open celebrating how great they were. Carol was the only one who did the right thing.

Agreed. If anything, the last few encounters with Negan shows that the group is unpredictable, has overwhelming numbers, and tends to show up out of nowhere. The last thing you do at that point is assume that you killed everyone. How many times do they have to underestimate the Saviors? I mean, when Rick and company attacked and killed that outpost, they assumed they had won. When Rick was trying to get Maggie to the Hilltop - they were running into Saviors EVERYWHERE, and it cost them Glenn and Abraham. Then, when they had the big battle at the end of last season, they underestimated them again, as they made a deal with the JunkYard Gang. Even though the Kingdom and Hilltop jumped in, Rick and Alexandria took heavy losses. Combine this with the fact Maggie, Rick, and The King KNOW there are .50 caliber machine guns in play. You can't assume they are where you THINK they are. Well, I guess you can, then watch as your entire Kingdom Platoon is chopped to pieces.

The way they were just standing around, 2 Saviors with AK-57's on either side of the woods could have cut down these idiotic Kingdom clowns.

If it wasn't so sad, the final scene from last week with the King just hobbling past his constituency to his apartment, returning from battle with only himself, Carol, and Jerry, would have been laughable.

Indeed. I am still amused that the entire Kingdom community appears to be about 20 people! Same for Hilltop and Alexandria! Budget cuts do not allow for lots of extras. And no doubt those town folk doubled as walkers!

They are always vauge about the numbers of people. But when Rick first got to Alexandria didn't The "mayor" tell him how many members are in the community? But many have been killed there. Alexandia 75, Hilltio 100, the Kingdom 200 ??? The Saviors 500 or is it 5000?

@Raymondoz2007 said:

They are always vauge about the numbers of people. But when Rick first got to Alexandria didn't The "mayor" tell him how many members are in the community? But many have been killed there. Alexandia 75, Hilltio 100, the Kingdom 200 ??? The Saviors 500 or is it 5000?

I have a vague recollection of her saying how many families were there but I do not have an archive fo old eps to consult so I do not know the number. And yes loads have been killed off by the Wolves and the walker attack. But even before the attacks, the "big meeting" they had where Rick killed the abusive husband took place on a porch, not a town hall. Again I believe the many budget cuts are to blame for such lack of cast scenes as well as never seeing Negan's "army" at his home base just people shooting from windows.

I keep hesring about budget cuts. Has this been confirmed? Why, isn't this AMC top show?

@Raymondoz2007 said:

I keep hesring about budget cuts. Has this been confirmed? Why, isn't this AMC top show?

Yes - I hear "Budget cuts budget cuts budget cuts". Where is this info coming from? Why would AMC and the production company make such drastic cuts to the #1 show on Cable, even if the audience is dwindling? I mean, I understand the nature of the business. Each year for a show, costs go up. Cast salaries, crew salaries, salaries for everyone But I can't believe they'd do DRASTIC cuts to a show that is their anchor.

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@Raymondoz2007 said:

I keep hesring about budget cuts. Has this been confirmed? Why, isn't this AMC top show?

Yes - I hear "Budget cuts budget cuts budget cuts". Where is this info coming from? Why would AMC and the production company make such drastic cuts to the #1 show on Cable, even if the audience is dwindling? I mean, I understand the nature of the business. Each year for a show, costs go up. Cast salaries, crew salaries, salaries for everyone But I can't believe they'd do DRASTIC cuts to a show that is their anchor.

It started after season one. I read, and of course I do not have a link, that it was the main reason Frank Darabout left. AMC wanted to cut the budget in spite of it being an out of the box hit. They did, he left, (so did a few actors who joined the show just cause of Darabout like Berenthal) and we kept watching. The "stuck at the farm" season two was an example of saving money as they did not have to keep moving (nor move the story along much).

From what I have also read they do it every season and we are still here watching. Executives want more for less and if they can get it by cutting budgets whcih eventually threaten show quality, they will. Demographics tell them we are sheep and will continue to watch even as the show gets cheaper and cheaper looking. Doesn't matter if it's their #1 show. If the advertisers are still lining up to shill on the show and again we still watch it, they will continue to do it. My quess is 90% of the budget is spent on cast with JDM getting more than anyone since he is an established name.

The problems started showing for sure in season six. Now they are manifest.

@Oldnewbie said:

@Satch_the_man said:

But they thought that they had beaten the enemy in their battle already. I mean... I'm no expert on military tactics or anything of the sort, but it didn't seem, uh, super stupid to me. They were ambushed.

They had simply gotten to their destination. No reason to think they had killed off all of Negan's forces on the way there. Yes they survived two ambushes prior, but to think the main objective was abandoned and vulnerable was poor writing. Would have been better if they were in formation, ready for something when the unexpected big guns took most of them out... not standing in the open celebrating how great they were. Carol was the only one who did the right thing.

Is it really "poor writing" if the Kingdom peoples' actions reflect how inexperienced they were, while Carol (a more experienced, skilled fighter) is the "only one who did the right thing"?

@Oldnewbie said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@Raymondoz2007 said:

I keep hesring about budget cuts. Has this been confirmed? Why, isn't this AMC top show?

Yes - I hear "Budget cuts budget cuts budget cuts". Where is this info coming from? Why would AMC and the production company make such drastic cuts to the #1 show on Cable, even if the audience is dwindling? I mean, I understand the nature of the business. Each year for a show, costs go up. Cast salaries, crew salaries, salaries for everyone But I can't believe they'd do DRASTIC cuts to a show that is their anchor.

It started after season one. I read, and of course I do not have a link, that it was the main reason Frank Darabout left. AMC wanted to cut the budget in spite of it being an out of the box hit. They did, he left, (so did a few actors who joined the show just cause of Darabout like Berenthal) and we kept watching. The "stuck at the farm" season two was an example of saving money as they did not have to keep moving (nor move the story along much).

From what I have also read they do it every season and we are still here watching. Executives want more for less and if they can get it by cutting budgets whcih eventually threaten show quality, they will. Demographics tell them we are sheep and will continue to watch even as the show gets cheaper and cheaper looking. Doesn't matter if it's their #1 show. If the advertisers are still lining up to shill on the show and again we still watch it, they will continue to do it. My quess is 90% of the budget is spent on cast with JDM getting more than anyone since he is an established name.

The problems started showing for sure in season six. Now they are manifest.

I was aware of the budget issues for Season 2. I believe they essentially wanted them to make Season 2 with a budget that was comparable to Season 1, even though they were doubling the amount of episodes. That was because they got GOOD ratings, but TWD, while a hit show, it was NOT the runaway super hit it became in Season 3. Season 1 averaged about 5.24 million viewers. Season 2 jumped to 6.9 million. But Season 3 it took off to 10.4. For the record, Season 4 averaged 13.3, Season 5 averaged 14.4, Season 6 averaged 13.15, Season 7 averaged 11.34, and this season opened with 11.44. (TV by the Numbers)

As to the statement that " they do it every season", if you are saying they've cut the budget every year, I just don't believe that. It makes NO sense considering they nearly tripled the viewers from Season 1 to Season 5. That just doesn't make sense. Shows naturally get more expensive year to year. I think the fact they spend (whether people liked it or not or thought it was good or not) a lot of money on that CGI tiger suggests the budget hasn't been cut as much as has been suggested.

Again, I'd like a link to anything stating there has been big budget cuts for this season. I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I'd just like to get something official to read, and not just from the message boards. I have no doubt they may have SHIFTED some budget needs to compensate the salaries of some of the cast and crew and producers and writers. And there may be some cuts. But I don't think there huge slashes have occurred. My personal take is the writers have gotten lazy and are over-compensating for the critiques that last year didn't feature the action some had hoped for.

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@Oldnewbie said:

@censorshipsucks06 said:

@Raymondoz2007 said:

I keep hesring about budget cuts. Has this been confirmed? Why, isn't this AMC top show?

Yes - I hear "Budget cuts budget cuts budget cuts". Where is this info coming from? Why would AMC and the production company make such drastic cuts to the #1 show on Cable, even if the audience is dwindling? I mean, I understand the nature of the business. Each year for a show, costs go up. Cast salaries, crew salaries, salaries for everyone But I can't believe they'd do DRASTIC cuts to a show that is their anchor.

It started after season one. I read, and of course I do not have a link, that it was the main reason Frank Darabout left. AMC wanted to cut the budget in spite of it being an out of the box hit. They did, he left, (so did a few actors who joined the show just cause of Darabout like Berenthal) and we kept watching. The "stuck at the farm" season two was an example of saving money as they did not have to keep moving (nor move the story along much).

From what I have also read they do it every season and we are still here watching. Executives want more for less and if they can get it by cutting budgets whcih eventually threaten show quality, they will. Demographics tell them we are sheep and will continue to watch even as the show gets cheaper and cheaper looking. Doesn't matter if it's their #1 show. If the advertisers are still lining up to shill on the show and again we still watch it, they will continue to do it. My quess is 90% of the budget is spent on cast with JDM getting more than anyone since he is an established name.

The problems started showing for sure in season six. Now they are manifest.

I was aware of the budget issues for Season 2. I believe they essentially wanted them to make Season 2 with a budget that was comparable to Season 1, even though they were doubling the amount of episodes. That was because they got GOOD ratings, but TWD, while a hit show, it was NOT the runaway super hit it became in Season 3. Season 1 averaged about 5.24 million viewers. Season 2 jumped to 6.9 million. But Season 3 it took off to 10.4. For the record, Season 4 averaged 13.3, Season 5 averaged 14.4, Season 6 averaged 13.15, Season 7 averaged 11.34, and this season opened with 11.44. (TV by the Numbers)

As to the statement that " they do it every season", if you are saying they've cut the budget every year, I just don't believe that. It makes NO sense considering they nearly tripled the viewers from Season 1 to Season 5. That just doesn't make sense. Shows naturally get more expensive year to year. I think the fact they spend (whether people liked it or not or thought it was good or not) a lot of money on that CGI tiger suggests the budget hasn't been cut as much as has been suggested.

Again, I'd like a link to anything stating there has been big budget cuts for this season. I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I'd just like to get something official to read, and not just from the message boards. I have no doubt they may have SHIFTED some budget needs to compensate the salaries of some of the cast and crew and producers and writers. And there may be some cuts. But I don't think there huge slashes have occurred. My personal take is the writers have gotten lazy and are over-compensating for the critiques that last year didn't feature the action some had hoped for.

This article talks primarily about season two cuts and the lawsuit Darabout filed about them, but goes on to say that AMC's "Spartan like" approach to the show's budget is an ongoing thing. It even correctly predicted Shiva's demise as the CGI to create it was expensive! As a semi-pro in the field of entertainment I have seen this same approach on many shows, hits or otherwise, It is the "Get more for less" paradigm of entertainment. If a production company could get everyone to work without paying them they would! https://mic.com/articles/161740/here-s-how-much-it-costs-to-make-an-episode-of-the-walking-dead#.GN5gFKb4M

Shiva was never going to be around long - at least that's what people told me who read the comics - which I don't. I think it was a pretty good guess that the silly Tiger wasn't going to be around for years on the show. While you speak of "Spartan like" approach - that's different than budget CUTS - which suggests it at one time had a higher budget, and now AMC is slashing it. Keeping it under control from the start insures better profits. But again, some here are stating there have been large cuts to the budget, and this article doesn't say that.

Thanks for posting - it was a good read.

For the record, I didn't mind Season 2. I think we got a lot of good character development and stories in Season 2.

Good writing can mask a low budget. Just look at Netflix series such as House of Card or Stranger Things. Those aren't big budget F/X shows. Just good writing and story telling.

@censorshipsucks06 said:

Shiva was never going to be around long - at least that's what people told me who read the comics - which I don't. I think it was a pretty good guess that the silly Tiger wasn't going to be around for years on the show. While you speak of "Spartan like" approach - that's different than budget CUTS - which suggests it at one time had a higher budget, and now AMC is slashing it. Keeping it under control from the start insures better profits. But again, some here are stating there have been large cuts to the budget, and this article doesn't say that.

Thanks for posting - it was a good read.

For the record, I didn't mind Season 2. I think we got a lot of good character development and stories in Season 2.

Good writing can mask a low budget. Just look at Netflix series such as House of Card or Stranger Things. Those aren't big budget F/X shows. Just good writing and story telling.

Yes, Shiva was sadly doomed from the start😥