Well, if I were in Rick's position, I would protect my own first before the rest of the group. Rick may call his group "family", but when the chips are down, there's not one of them he would sacrifice first in order to save Judith and Carl.

When Carl is in danger, he will lose objectivity as most fathers would in Rick's situation. It's difficult to remain detached when he may be making decisions as a father, rather than as the leader of a group.

@Dark_Sithlord said:

Well, if I were in Rick's position, I would protect my own first before the rest of the group.

Remember when Rick first met Daryl? And told him, "I wanted to have a rational discussion about this. Can we do that?" while Daryl is freaking out over their leaving his big brother handcuffed on a roof? Could anyone "have a rational discussion" with Rick if it was one of his family up there?

Remember when Jessie was watching her child being eaten alive by walkers? Rick was trying to tell her to keep moving, to just leave the kid and keep moving. Had it been Judith or even Carl, would Rick have been able to tell himself "just leave, keep moving?"

It's difficult to remain detached when he may be making decisions as a father

It's difficult to remain detached for any of them, making decisions as a family member to any of the ones they've lost. What makes Rick any more special in this regard?

Rick should not be above criticism, he's not perfect. BUT, one of the driving character traits we've come to like about him, from the first time he decided to go back for Merle; and then, how he was equally determined to get Glenn back from the latino gang - once you're a part of Rick's group, you're in, and he'll go to hell for you. In this respect, Rick is a hero.

I just wish they'd write him to show some of the "calm rationality" he demands of others.

Rick has also experienced great loss, and I find it convenient that you dismiss Lori's death so easily to support your point. He lost Shane who was like a brother to him. Hershel, who was a father figure. That fact of the matter is, Rick did lose someone he loved, and he did suffer a mental/nervous breakdown. However, he was able to break out of it and regain the "calm rationality" that makes him the leader.

@Dark_Sithlord said:

Rick has also experienced great loss, and I find it convenient that you dismiss Lori's death so easily to support your point.

At one point, he and Lori weren't even on speaking terms. By the time they were in the prison, it was he who essentially had put an end to it. Have you not noticed how many lead characters had to be the ones to put down their own family members, but Rick did not put down Lori, his child son did it? That's the writers' way of showing that Rick and Lori were not close.

All the people who had to put down their family members were close, so that doing so was emotional both for them and for us the viewers. There'd have been no emotion in Rick putting down Lori, no great loss for him - that's why they did it with Carl instead, the boy who was still attached to his mother. The writers are telling a story here, with very clear imagery. Contrast his not even being present, by writers' device, at Lori's death, with how long it took him to wrap his head around chopping off Carl's arm, we're not even talking about killing him, he hasn't turned, and doing so would save all his group's life...Yet, he had to make Negan count.

So, while you may find my "dismissing" Lori's death a convenient support of my claim, I'm not among the writers who've told the story as they did.

Rick has NOT had to face what the other characters have faced. Maggie watched her father decapitated. Andrea had to put down her own turning sister. Daryl put down his own turned brother. Even Deanna's son had to put down his own turned mother. Morgan failed to do what he had to do with his turned wife, and had to endure her killing his son, and he's had to carry that. Etc. Etc.

He lost Shane who was like a brother to him.

Please. The guy who banged his wife; told him he was not as good a husband or father as Shane could be; set him up to kill him? Yeah, real great loss. Tell Carol that, as she watches her turned child emerge from the barn and is put down like the rest of them.

As I've said. Rick is the hero of the story. But he ain't perfect. And the writers have woven a screenplay that makes this part of his character flaw/weakness.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@Dark_Sithlord said:

Rick has also experienced great loss, and I find it convenient that you dismiss Lori's death so easily to support your point.

At one point, he and Lori weren't even on speaking terms. By the time they were in the prison, it was he who essentially had put an end to it. Have you not noticed how many lead characters had to be the ones to put down their own family members, but Rick did not put down Lori, his child son did it? That's the writers' way of showing that Rick and Lori were not close.

All the people who had to put down their family members were close, so that doing so was emotional both for them and for us the viewers. There'd have been no emotion in Rick putting down Lori, no great loss for him - that's why they did it with Carl instead, the boy who was still attached to his mother. The writers are telling a story here, with very clear imagery. Contrast his not even being present, by writers' device, at Lori's death, with how long it took him to wrap his head around chopping off Carl's arm, we're not even talking about killing him, he hasn't turned, and doing so would save all his group's life...Yet, he had to make Negan count.

So, while you may find my "dismissing" Lori's death a convenient support of my claim, I'm not among the writers who've told the story as they did.

Rick has NOT had to face what the other characters have faced. Maggie watched her father decapitated. Andrea had to put down her own turning sister. Daryl put down his own turned brother. Even Deanna's son had to put down his own turned mother. Morgan failed to do what he had to do with his turned wife, and had to endure her killing his son, and he's had to carry that. Etc. Etc.

He lost Shane who was like a brother to him.

Please. The guy who banged his wife; told him he was not as good a husband or father as Shane could be; set him up to kill him? Yeah, real great loss. Tell Carol that, as she watches her turned child emerge from the barn and is put down like the rest of them.

As I've said. Rick is the hero of the story. But he ain't perfect. And the writers have woven a screenplay that makes this part of his character flaw/weakness.

With all due respect, you are making a huge assumption about what the writers were trying to achieve. You have no idea what they were trying to do unless you were there at the meeting with the writers plotting the story, or the writers specifically stated in interviews that they had Carl kill Lori because they didn't want Rick putting down a family member. You're just guessing. If I stated the writers had Carl kill off Lori for shock value, then my guess would be just as valid as yours.

No huge loss for Rick, you say? Even though Rick and Lori were estranged, you don't think her death had an impact on Rick? Seriously? I beg to differ. If you recall, Rick went into an emotional tailspin. He was mentally incapacitated for a time. Yet, eventually he still moved on.

Prior to the zombie apocalypse, yes, Shane was like a brother to Rick. Even though they had their falling out, Shane's death still impacted Rick. I would say Shane's death still haunts Rick. But Rick still perseveres and keeps moving forward just as he asks of others.

Just to point out some inconsistencies in your argument: Maggie didn't put down her father. She witnessed it, but she didn't swing the sword. If you recall, Rick had front row seats to that gruesome spectacle. I think more than anyone, Rick felt the burden of leadership when Sophia emerged from the barn, and realized his role in her turning, which is why he stepped up and put Sophia down himself, not Carol.

I understand you have certain expectations from your heroes and maybe in a sane world, you would have a point. But in a zombie apocalypse, heroes don't have the luxury of living up to anyone's expectations. He has to do his best, and try to survive. In the end, the group has to decide if Rick is worthy of their trust and whether to follow him. If they accept his flaws and weaknesses then maybe I can too.

@Dark_Sithlord said:

With all due respect, you are making a huge assumption about what the writers were trying to achieve.

The screenplay is telling a story, and it's not altogether ambiguous. I'm sure it's not about King Kong. Or the stock market collapse of 1929. Or whether Stonehenge was built by aliens. However, I do recognize that, even with the material as presented, there is room for interpretations. Not a ton. There's nothing to suggest that Negan is Rick's long lost brother, or that Shane will undead again and try to bang Michonne. But, sure, there is room for interpretation.

You have no idea what they were trying to do unless you were there at the meeting with the writers plotting the story, or the writers specifically stated in interviews that they had Carl kill Lori because they didn't want Rick putting down a family member. You're just guessing. If I stated the writers had Carl kill off Lori for shock value, then my guess would be just as valid as yours.

It'd only be as valid as the material supports. What, in the entire arc thus far, would suggest Carl killing Lori is for shock value? That seems inconsistent with what they've shown us thus far.

No huge loss for Rick, you say? Even though Rick and Lori were estranged, you don't think her death had an impact on Rick? Seriously? I beg to differ. If you recall, Rick went into an emotional tailspin. He was mentally incapacitated for a time. Yet, eventually he still moved on.

Now, that's a potentially fair point. But, it may just support my issue with Rick. If, even though he and Lori were estranged, he was still bent out of shape beyond ability to function, it's kinda not cool for him to expect others to bounce back or stay sharp while people closer to them than Lori was to him are being torn to shreds.

Prior to the zombie apocalypse, yes, Shane was like a brother to Rick. Even though they had their falling out, Shane's death still impacted Rick. I would say Shane's death still haunts Rick. But Rick still perseveres and keeps moving forward just as he asks of others.

Sure, I agree with that. But, again, the state of their relationship and the manner in which Shane died is hardly commensurate with the death of close loved ones who did not try to kill their loved ones while still alive.

Just to point out some inconsistencies in your argument: Maggie didn't put down her father. She witnessed it, but she didn't swing the sword.

Yes, agreed, Maggie did not put down Herschel. But I maintain, Herschel and Maggie were plenty closer than anyone Rick has lost, whether Shane, Lori or anyone else by extension.

If you recall, Rick had front row seats to that gruesome spectacle. I think more than anyone, Rick felt the burden of leadership when Sophia emerged from the barn, and realized his role in her turning, which is why he stepped up and put Sophia down himself, not Carol.

Yes. But then, could he have put down one of his own? I'm skeptical.

I understand you have certain expectations from your heroes and maybe in a sane world, you would have a point. But in a zombie apocalypse, heroes don't have the luxury of living up to anyone's expectations. He has to do his best, and try to survive. In the end, the group has to decide if Rick is worthy of their trust and whether to follow him. If they accept his flaws and weaknesses then maybe I can too.

I'm only comparing Rick, in that crazy world, with everyone else with whom he's sharing that crazy world, not to real life.

I think Rick is a character open to criticism. He's not a perfect character, and this area is suspect, to me. Do you think he's above criticism?

I think Rick has reached the point where he can handle losing one of his own. He was prepared to lose Carl to Negan. Hilltop saved the day, but he and Carl had both decided that enough is enough and they will suffer whatever loss they have to endure to resist Negan.

@jonnieblack said:

I think Rick has reached the point where he can handle losing one of his own. He was prepared to lose Carl to Negan. Hilltop saved the day, but he and Carl had both decided that enough is enough and they will suffer whatever loss they have to endure to resist Negan.

I have to agree with you. I believe Rick has come to the realization that at any time he may lose Carl or Judith. I think he is prepared for it. He sees the bigger picture of community. He said last evening at the premiere of 801, "It's not about me".