@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Thanks for confirming that Rick is a stupid bad guy. And leaving them a crate of guns is what Negan would do. Hence the title of the thread. Lol

Why would Negan leave them a crate of guns? He would take the guns, along with half of everything else, and cave some heads in with Lucille. Rick should've left them a few guns but you can hardly compare the results of their visit with a social call by the Saviors. And I repeat: the Oceansiders have killed a fair number of people who never threatened them or did anything wrong, they're not exactly a bunch of blameless victims.

Okay. One more time. Rick is a stupid bully. Always has and always will be.

@LadyGigi said: Okay. One more time. Rick is a stupid bully. Always has and always will be.

You just keep repeating yourself. You haven't actually addressed a single point I raised. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it the truth.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Okay. One more time. Rick is a stupid bully. Always has and always will be.

You just keep repeating yourself. You haven't actually addressed a single point I raised. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it the truth.

It's true in my head. Look, I haven't liked Rick in a long time. Sure you think that he had no other recourse and that is just untrue. He didn't have to steal those women's guns. The writers are just dorks.

@LadyGigi said:

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Okay. One more time. Rick is a stupid bully. Always has and always will be.

You just keep repeating yourself. You haven't actually addressed a single point I raised. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it the truth.

It's true in my head. Look, I haven't liked Rick in a long time. Sure you think that he had no other recourse and that is just untrue. He didn't have to steal those women's guns. The writers are just dorks.

Sure he could've let the alliance with the junk people fall through and gone up against the Saviors with too little firepower. Great plan. Blame the writers if you want, but Rick has been put in a situation where he's convinced three (soon to be four with the Kingdom) communities to participate in a war against Negan. He knows of one and only one place to get the weapons they need in the short time available. It's either get those guns from Oceanside or let three of his communities face brutal payback at the hands of the Saviors for their act of rebellion. Jadis and her group would disappear into the woodwork with the guns they've already got and probably escape any consequences. In all fairness you could hardly blame them. But this is Rick's situation and there's not a lot of give in it.

You're also overlooking that Oceanside has murdered an unknown but not insignificant number of innocents simply to protect their privacy. And they've been teaching their children that this is all perfectly okay, that the lives of outsiders are utterly worthless and should be sacrificed without remorse if there's even one chance in a thousand they might pose a risk. Tara's little friend there didn't get that attitude on her own. It's been encouraged by the adults at Oceanside. In what way is it unfair to ignore the rights of those who ignore the rights of others? Turnabout and all that. You make them sound like a group of poor defenseless ladies being bullied by mean old Rick - not an accurate picture at all.

@chrisjdel said:

Sure he could've let the alliance with the junk people fall through and gone up against the Saviors with too little firepower. Great plan. Blame the writers if you want, but Rick has been put in a situation where he's convinced three (soon to be four with the Kingdom) communities to participate in a war against Negan. He knows of one and only one place to get the weapons they need in the short time available. It's either get those guns from Oceanside or let three of his communities face brutal payback at the hands of the Saviors for their act of rebellion. Jadis and her group would disappear into the woodwork with the guns they've already got and probably escape any consequences. In all fairness you could hardly blame them. But this is Rick's situation and there's not a lot of give in it.

You're also overlooking that Oceanside has murdered an unknown but not insignificant number of innocents simply to protect their privacy. And they've been teaching their children that this is all perfectly okay, that the lives of outsiders are utterly worthless and should be sacrificed without remorse if there's even one chance in a thousand they might pose a risk. Tara's little friend there didn't get that attitude on her own. It's been encouraged by the adults at Oceanside. In what way is it unfair to ignore the rights of those who ignore the rights of others? Turnabout and all that. You make them sound like a group of poor defenseless ladies being bullied by mean old Rick - not an accurate picture at all.

Good points.

@izzybee3 said:

@chrisjdel said:

Sure he could've let the alliance with the junk people fall through and gone up against the Saviors with too little firepower. Great plan. Blame the writers if you want, but Rick has been put in a situation where he's convinced three (soon to be four with the Kingdom) communities to participate in a war against Negan. He knows of one and only one place to get the weapons they need in the short time available. It's either get those guns from Oceanside or let three of his communities face brutal payback at the hands of the Saviors for their act of rebellion. Jadis and her group would disappear into the woodwork with the guns they've already got and probably escape any consequences. In all fairness you could hardly blame them. But this is Rick's situation and there's not a lot of give in it.

You're also overlooking that Oceanside has murdered an unknown but not insignificant number of innocents simply to protect their privacy. And they've been teaching their children that this is all perfectly okay, that the lives of outsiders are utterly worthless and should be sacrificed without remorse if there's even one chance in a thousand they might pose a risk. Tara's little friend there didn't get that attitude on her own. It's been encouraged by the adults at Oceanside. In what way is it unfair to ignore the rights of those who ignore the rights of others? Turnabout and all that. You make them sound like a group of poor defenseless ladies being bullied by mean old Rick - not an accurate picture at all.

Good points.

He could have just negotiated like what he did with the garbage community. Robbing those poor women at Oceanside just makes Rick look like a villain.

@chrisjdel , what is this hard on you have for Rick? Seriously, he's a bad guy. He, along with everyone in this world, has done bad things. That's it.

Now the question I have for you is this. Are you defending Rick because of an emotional attachment? Ask yourself this. Because, like the OP stated, had we been following the Saviors from the beginning, we would see Rick as a group of bandits that LITERALY MURDERED an entire outpost of ours, while our people fucking slept. That's ruthlessly cold, bro.

@TheShredder said:

@chrisjdel , what is this hard on you have for Rick? Seriously, he's a bad guy. He, along with everyone in this world, has done bad things. That's it.

Now the question I have for you is this. Are you defending Rick because of an emotional attachment? Ask yourself this. Because, like the OP stated, had we been following the Saviors from the beginning, we would see Rick as a group of bandits that LITERALY MURDERED an entire outpost of ours, while our people fucking slept. That's ruthlessly cold, bro.

That outpost was filled with people who bashed their victims heads in and then took photos of it. If we had been following the Saviors, why on earth would Rick and his group be seen as bad guys? The saviors are sociopaths, for crying out loud. Until we see Rick killing an innocent person and taking a picture of it to hang on his wall then you have no point at all.

@mrjacs said:

That outpost was filled with people who bashed their victims heads in and then took photos of it. If we had been following the Saviors, why on earth would Rick and his group be seen as bad guys? The saviors are sociopaths, for crying out loud. Until we see Rick killing an innocent person and taking a picture of it to hang on his wall then you have no point at all.

And you don't realize that this is based on a bias perception because we've been following Rick, not the Saviors. Had we been following the Saviors, you would be singing a different tune. That's what you guys aren't realizing.

@TheShredder said:

@chrisjdel , what is this hard on you have for Rick? Seriously, he's a bad guy. He, along with everyone in this world, has done bad things. That's it.

Now the question I have for you is this. Are you defending Rick because of an emotional attachment? Ask yourself this. Because, like the OP stated, had we been following the Saviors from the beginning, we would see Rick as a group of bandits that LITERALY MURDERED an entire outpost of ours, while our people fucking slept. That's ruthlessly cold, bro.

Rick isn't even a real person so what kind of foolish question is that?

Yes, almost everyone who's still alive in the world of TWD has done some bad shit to survive. But not everyone is equally ruthless and indiscriminate about it. They already knew from their run-in with those Saviors on the road that these guys were bullies who would kill someone just to prove a point. At Hilltop they beat a 16 year old boy to death to intimidate the rest of them into submission. And when they went into the satellite station, the wall was covered with polaroids of smashed and mutilated bodies, the ones in each corner of the rooms presumably being the handiwork of the Savior who slept there. The idea was to go in and take them out with minimal (preferably no) casualties on the Alexandrian side. The predators became prey. Cry me a river of tears.

This is what really gets me about Oceanside. They are NOT a bunch of poor defenseless women being victimized by evil Rick. The Alexandria/Hilltop party showed them a lot more mercy than they've shown others. No one died. Rick and company have never killed a random person just because. And they've shown remarkable tolerance even of those whose behavior threatened them. They didn't kill Father Gabriel; though he was more of a burden than an asset they took him all the way to Alexandria, and he showed his gratitude by betraying them, but they still gave him another chance. Look what happened when they met Jesus. He was a persistent pain in the ass who kept trying to steal their supplies. Those supplies (including badly needed food) wound up at the bottom of a lake thanks to him. They had two chances to just shoot this prick, but they took him back for medical attention despite all he'd done.

As I've pointed out before there is no structure, no government, no police to call. There are circumstances where you have to kill. Not just the traditional self defense but to stop someone who's certain to come back and make you pay if you let them go. This world requires you to be ice cold at times. But to compare Rick to Negan? Even back at the end of season 2 (this isn't a democracy anymore!) Rick never demanded that anyone kneel in his presence. He didn't set up a personal fiefdom at the prison during season 4 and make other guys' wives marry him, or create a serf class to do all the scut work for nothing more than his generous protection. Alexandria has never raided other communities for supplies or demanded tributes from them. And Dwight is the only guy in town at the moment with a burned face. Rick and the other Alexandrians can be hardasses when the situation calls for it but they're still the good guys.

@TheShredder said:

@chrisjdel , what is this hard on you have for Rick? Seriously, he's a bad guy. He, along with everyone in this world, has done bad things. That's it.

Now the question I have for you is this. Are you defending Rick because of an emotional attachment? Ask yourself this. Because, like the OP stated, had we been following the Saviors from the beginning, we would see Rick as a group of bandits that LITERALY MURDERED an entire outpost of ours, while our people fucking slept. That's ruthlessly cold, bro.

Good point. Rick and his crew have become bandits. Great analysis Shredder. I'm impressed.

@chrisjdel said:

Rick isn't even a real person so what kind of foolish question is that?

Right, and therefore there is no emotional connection. If you can't see yourself in a third person, then this conversation was over before it started.

@TheShredder said:

@chrisjdel said:

Rick isn't even a real person so what kind of foolish question is that?

Right, and therefore there is no emotional connection. If you can't see yourself in a third person, then this conversation was over before it started.

That's the sort of thing that sounds deep and profound but means nothing. What are you trying to say?

Dude, shoving your head in sand doesn't make the problem go away. You need to be objective, look at things without bias. That's what I'm trying to say. If you don't get it, don't respond. It just looks like you're trying to get the last word in.

@TheShredder said:

Dude, shoving your head in sand doesn't make the problem go away. You need to be objective, look at things without bias. That's what I'm trying to say. If you don't get it, don't respond. It just looks like you're trying to get the last word in.

I don't think he's trying to get the last word in. His argument is based upon how the writers want the audience to feel about the situatuion.

I think you just like to pick on alpha males. Chris is an alpha male on this board.