@Stormy86 said:

[@chrisjdel] I don't think his intentions were bad. He's just one of those people who acts like they have some insight the rest of us lack, and imposes what he thinks is best on other people without their consent. Your right to choose doesn't really count. It's okay to choose for you (even when the stakes are life and death) because he thinks he's doing what needs to be done. And of course, because his heart's in the right place. Guys like Richard cause a lot of damage in the real world and rarely take responsibility for it. Not really. Look at the way Richard wasn't apologizing when he spoke to Morgan, he was rationalizing and making excuses. You could almost see Morgan thinking wrong answer asshole and using every ounce of self control not to kill him right there on the spot. In the world of TWD people like this are a liability you can't afford. The damage they do will be measured in lives lost. If they can't get with the program, they need to hit the road.

Excellent observation. Your explanation just made me happy that Richard died. I still wish Benjamin was still around, but I get why his character had to go as well.

Credit to Richard. He got the job done. His ultimate goal is now in fruitation. He also got Carol out of her slump and Morgan back to killing. I don't think Morgan will be off the deep end for long. He is really angry and crazy right now but he has enough teachings to maybe balance himself. He will probably be a really good asset if he is killing them one by one when he sees them out and about.

@shenandoahok said:

Sadly, Morgan's pacifistic ways came to a screeching halt when he killed Richard. I wanted to cry seeing a good man descend into madness, but I had an idea this would happen when Richard's duplicity precipitated in the death of Morgan's protege, Benjamin. Morgan tried hard to walk the pacifist path, and in some ways, he walked that path to the detriment of his peers. Since Morgan became a regular on the show, I've wanted him to drop his pacifism because the world in which he lived dictated it. Mankind turned feral because of the zombie apocalypse, and Morgan seemed out of place in it with his do no harm to living human beings.

I understand why Morgan lost it tonight. Morgan viewed Benjamin as a son, and I saw that from early on in the season. So, when the young man died, I knew Morgan would wrestle with his pacifism, and I'm glad his killer instinct won.

Yeah I think it's cool to see the characters on this show lose their minds. I like the way this one was done too. I thought it was odd that nobody tried to stop Morgan from killing Richard though.

@shenandoahok said:

@beith1 said:

it was a good episode watching morgan go through so many different emotions. lennie did a good job.

I was actually feeling some stress during this episode because I knew after Benjamin died that he would regress, and invoke memories of his deceased son. I think Morgan telling Carol about Negan killing Glenn and Abraham was more telling than Morgan murdering Richard. He made a 180 degree change tonight, and I don't know if it's all good because he's not looking to team with Rick. He's on a mission to clean, to clear, and to do it one by one.

I wonder if the writers are setting up a romance between Morgan and Carol?

In that scene between Morgan and Carol, she implied that she didn't want him to fight and urged him to stay at her place. The reason she left Alexandria and her then boyfriend was that she knew in order to make the life with him that she wanted, she would have to protect him - including having to kill- that's something she wasn't willing to do. But no it seems as though Carol has changed her mind with Morgan. At first she didn't want him around. They were at odds with each other. And now he's proved that he respects her opinions and her boundaries. Maybe they will be hooking up?

@LadyGigi said:

@shenandoahok said:

Sadly, Morgan's pacifistic ways came to a screeching halt when he killed Richard. I wanted to cry seeing a good man descend into madness, but I had an idea this would happen when Richard's duplicity precipitated in the death of Morgan's protege, Benjamin. Morgan tried hard to walk the pacifist path, and in some ways, he walked that path to the detriment of his peers. Since Morgan became a regular on the show, I've wanted him to drop his pacifism because the world in which he lived dictated it. Mankind turned feral because of the zombie apocalypse, and Morgan seemed out of place in it with his do no harm to living human beings.

I understand why Morgan lost it tonight. Morgan viewed Benjamin as a son, and I saw that from early on in the season. So, when the young man died, I knew Morgan would wrestle with his pacifism, and I'm glad his killer instinct won.

Yeah I think it's cool to see the characters on this show lose their minds. I like the way this one was done too. I thought it was odd that nobody tried to stop Morgan from killing Richard though.

I think everybody was in shock for a moment because the least likely person violently attacked and killed a man.

@chrisjdel said:

Richard wasn't an evil guy, but he was one of those proactive types who go out and take action by themselves, without consulting anyone, because They Know Best.

Yeah. Remember when Carol did that same thing in season 4 when she murdered Karen and David in their sleep?

@shenandoahok said:

@LadyGigi said:

@shenandoahok said:

Sadly, Morgan's pacifistic ways came to a screeching halt when he killed Richard. I wanted to cry seeing a good man descend into madness, but I had an idea this would happen when Richard's duplicity precipitated in the death of Morgan's protege, Benjamin. Morgan tried hard to walk the pacifist path, and in some ways, he walked that path to the detriment of his peers. Since Morgan became a regular on the show, I've wanted him to drop his pacifism because the world in which he lived dictated it. Mankind turned feral because of the zombie apocalypse, and Morgan seemed out of place in it with his do no harm to living human beings.

I understand why Morgan lost it tonight. Morgan viewed Benjamin as a son, and I saw that from early on in the season. So, when the young man died, I knew Morgan would wrestle with his pacifism, and I'm glad his killer instinct won.

Yeah I think it's cool to see the characters on this show lose their minds. I like the way this one was done too. I thought it was odd that nobody tried to stop Morgan from killing Richard though.

I think everybody was in shock for a moment because the least likely person violently attacked and killed a man.

Yeah I know. That's not what I'm talking about. After a point it became obvious that Richard was dying. Why didn't they stop Morgan? That was weird.

@LadyGigi said: Yeah I think it's cool to see the characters on this show lose their minds. I like the way this one was done too. I thought it was odd that nobody tried to stop Morgan from killing Richard though.

They started to intervene but then Gavin said "Let him be!". Why he didn't want Ezekiel's people to stop the fight, who knows? But the Saviors had guns so they were basically left with pleading for Morgan to stop. All the survivors in the world of TWD are like combat vets who have seen one too many tours. Every so often they're bound to go a little nuts.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Yeah I think it's cool to see the characters on this show lose their minds. I like the way this one was done too. I thought it was odd that nobody tried to stop Morgan from killing Richard though.

They started to intervene but then Gavin said "Let him be!". Why he didn't want Ezekiel's people to stop the fight, who knows? But the Saviors had guns so they were basically left with pleading for Morgan to stop. All the survivors in the world of TWD are like combat vets who have seen one too many tours. Every so often they're bound to go a little nuts.

I just thought it was very disturbing how Morgan handled that situation. Instead of going to Ezekiel in private about what Richard did and how the result ended in that boy dying, he insteads steals Richard's idea (using Richard's exact words), waits until the next meeting with The Saviors and Richard's back was turned and brutally attacks and kills him in cold blood. It was a revenge killing.

That just doesn't sit right with me. I understand that that boy was like a son to Morgan but right now Morgan isn't looking like a good guy anymore. I'm trying not to judge him too harshly though.

@LadyGigi said: I just thought it was very disturbing how Morgan handled that situation. Instead of going to Ezekiel in private about what Richard did and how the result ended in that boy dying. He insteads steals Richard's idea, waits until the next meeting with The Saviors and Richard's back was turned and brutally attacks and kills him in cold blood. It was a revenge killing.

That just doesn't sit right with me. I understand that that boy was like a son to Morgan but right now Morgan isn't looking like a good guy anymore. I'm trying not to judge him too harshly though.

I think he might've responded differently if Richard had shown straight remorse for what happened to Benjamin and said he was wrong to do what he did. Instead of making excuses for himself. He might also have responded differently if he had gone to Ezekiel and told him everything. But Richard was still being calculating and manipulative. We'll talk about it later. You know, after his little plan was complete. I think that really set Morgan off. Like I said, almost everyone has some degree of PTSD. Morgan has always had that rage inside him. Eastman's training has helped him to keep it suppressed, but he's never really faced it and come to terms with it. We know he killed people who did nothing to deserve it, he admitted as much to Eastman. We the viewers just didn't see it happen on screen.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: I just thought it was very disturbing how Morgan handled that situation. Instead of going to Ezekiel in private about what Richard did and how the result ended in that boy dying. He insteads steals Richard's idea, waits until the next meeting with The Saviors and Richard's back was turned and brutally attacks and kills him in cold blood. It was a revenge killing.

That just doesn't sit right with me. I understand that that boy was like a son to Morgan but right now Morgan isn't looking like a good guy anymore. I'm trying not to judge him too harshly though.

I think he might've responded differently if Richard had shown straight remorse for what happened to Benjamin and said he was wrong to do what he did. Instead of making excuses for himself. He might also have responded differently if he had gone to Ezekiel and told him everything. But Richard was still being calculating and manipulative. We'll talk about it later. You know, after his little plan was complete. I think that really set Morgan off. Like I said, almost everyone has some degree of PTSD. Morgan has always had that rage inside him. Eastman's training has helped him to keep it suppressed, but he's never really faced it and come to terms with it. We know he killed people who did nothing to deserve it, he admitted as much to Eastman. We the viewers just didn't see it happen on screen.

Okay but the member if The Wolves made excuses too, yet Morgan didn't kill him. So what's YOUR excuse for Morgan?

@LadyGigi said:

@shenandoahok said:

@beith1 said:

it was a good episode watching morgan go through so many different emotions. lennie did a good job.

I was actually feeling some stress during this episode because I knew after Benjamin died that he would regress, and invoke memories of his deceased son. I think Morgan telling Carol about Negan killing Glenn and Abraham was more telling than Morgan murdering Richard. He made a 180 degree change tonight, and I don't know if it's all good because he's not looking to team with Rick. He's on a mission to clean, to clear, and to do it one by one.

I wonder if the writers are setting up a romance between Morgan and Carol?

In that scene between Morgan and Carol, she implied that she didn't want him to fight and urged him to stay at her place. The reason she left Alexandria and her then boyfriend was that she knew in order to make the life with him that she wanted, she would have to protect him - including having to kill- that's something she wasn't willing to do. But no it seems as though Carol has changed her mind with Morgan. At first she didn't want him around. They were at odds with each other. And now he's proved that he respects her opinions and her boundaries. Maybe they will be hooking up?

Last season I thought they would eventually fall for each other in this post-apocalyptic world, but in this season, she repeatedly kept him at a distance. I think both of them are struggling with their humanity on a visceral level because both of them have lost a child and a spouse. Now, I have to admit that the death of Carol’s husband was the best thing for her, but if she was going to be matched with anybody, I think it would be Morgan. They have a lot in common.

@LadyGigi said: Okay but the member if The Wolves made excuses too, yet Morgan didn't kill him. So what's YOUR excuse for Morgan?

There isn't one. A recurring theme on this show has been the question, once you've done truly horrible things is there any way back to the person you were before? Or is there a point when the old you is lost forever? I think Morgan believes redemption is possible but hasn't yet made up his mind if he can be redeemed.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: Okay but the member if The Wolves made excuses too, yet Morgan didn't kill him. So what's YOUR excuse for Morgan?

There isn't one. I think Morgan believes redemption is possible but hasn't yet made up his mind if he can be redeemed.

That's interesting because so far Richard is the only murder that we have seen Morgan commit that wasn't an act of self defense or acting on behalf of someone like he did for Carol when he saved her from being shot by that Savior last season.

This situation with Richard was a cold blooded murder. And I don't think Morgan has a problem living with his decision so his entire philosphy about rehabilitating damage people was a whole lot of bullshit.

@LadyGigi said: That's interesting because so far Richard is the only murder that we have seen Morgan commit that wasn't an act of self defense or acting on behalf of someone like he did for Carol when he saved her from being shot by that Savior last season.

This situation with Richard was a cold blooded murder. And I don't think Morgan has a problem living with his decision so his entire philosphy about rehabilitating damage people was a whole lot of bullshit.

Yes, that's the only killing we've seen Morgan commit where he wasn't protecting himself or someone else. But we know he's killed plenty of other people. Remember back as far as Clear when he tried shooting Rick, Michonne, and Carl? He didn't even know who they were at that point. But most of those guns in his place came from other people who intruded into his area. So a fair number of survivors just trying to ... well, survive, got taken down to build his little arsenal. And that was before he went on walkabout trying to clear the whole world by himself. Granted, those two guys in the goat episode were trying to jump him and steal his stuff but by his own admission, many of the people he killed weren't threatening him in any way.

As for Richard, you could say the exact same thing about executing convicted murderers. There's a certain element of hypocrisy (if you want to look at it that way) in punishing someone for taking another's life by taking theirs. But most people don't believe Eastman's philosophy that all life is precious. Most of us believe some lives are not precious. When someone is responsible, particularly in a cold-blooded and calculating way, for another person's death we think they deserve to die. Richard was perfectly willing to throw Carol under a bus to advance his plan. Morgan may not know that, but it probably wouldn't surprise him. He's pretty much taken the measure of the man. I don't think he feels especially good about strangling Richard but he doesn't regret it either. That's what's bothering him right now in my opinion. That he doesn't feel bad about it.

@chrisjdel said:

@LadyGigi said: That's interesting because so far Richard is the only murder that we have seen Morgan commit that wasn't an act of self defense or acting on behalf of someone like he did for Carol when he saved her from being shot by that Savior last season.

This situation with Richard was a cold blooded murder. And I don't think Morgan has a problem living with his decision so his entire philosphy about rehabilitating damage people was a whole lot of bullshit.

Yes, that's the only killing we've seen Morgan commit where he wasn't protecting himself or someone else. But we know he's killed plenty of other people. Remember back as far as Clear when he tried shooting Rick, Michonne, and Carl? He didn't even know who they were at that point. But most of those guns in his place came from other people who intruded into his area. So a fair number of survivors just trying to ... well, survive, got taken down to build his little arsenal. And that was before he went on walkabout trying to clear the whole world by himself. Granted, those two guys in the goat episode were trying to jump him and steal his stuff but by his own admission, many of the people he killed weren't threatening him in any way.

As for Richard, you could say the exact same thing about executing convicted murderers. There's a certain element of hypocrisy (if you want to look at it that way) in punishing someone for taking another's life by taking theirs. But most people don't believe Eastman's philosophy that all life is precious. Most of us believe some lives are not precious. When someone is responsible, particularly in a cold-blooded and calculating way, for another person's death we think they deserve to die. Richard was perfectly willing to throw Carol under a bus to advance his plan. Morgan may not know that, but it probably wouldn't surprise him. He's pretty much taken the measure of the man. I don't think he feels especially good about strangling Richard but he doesn't regret it either. That's what's bothering him right now in my opinion. That he doesn't feel bad about it.

I like what you said about Morgan and his behavior in Clear. He was just pure crazy in Clear. This time he has gone full on psycho.

I just think that what he did to Richard was horrible. Richard was remorseful. He also said that he wanted to be the sacrifice. Amd he was right. It was getting impossible to meet Negan's demands. He didn't plan it right but war is inevitable because Rick is gathering forces together. Morgan knows this. So does Morgan think that Negan can be rehabilitated? I guess we'll find out.