@raze464 said: Because I can't just change it. Other mods and Travis need to be consulted with so a consensus of what should be changed and what it should be changed with is reached. In all of the reports where this issue comes up, [...]

Thats ok, if you personally can't change it. Please consult Travis and other mods so we get to a official statement from travis or maybe even a solution.

@raze464 said: [...] I've asked this same question and, so far, either no one has suggested anything or what they've suggested breaks the regular TV guidelines of the first episode of a season always being episode 1.

That's the entire point. We WANT to break the guidelines. We want them to change. Make separate guidelines for anime or change the tv guidelines. We don't care. But it's probably only one of those two that work as a solution.

@raze464 said:

@ukqv6 said:

@raze464 said: How would you change them? Please keep in mind that TV anime entries are not exempt from the regular TV guidelines, which say the first episode of a season is always episode 1 and this absolutely cannot be changed.

You mentioned that before. We don't understand why though. Why can't it be changed? This doesn't even make sense. It's your (you as a mod represent tmdb) site, just change it. It's just text.

Because I can't just change it. Other mods and Travis need to be consulted with so a consensus of what should be changed and what it should be changed with is reached. In all of the reports where this issue comes up, I've asked this same question and, so far, either no one has suggested anything or what they've suggested breaks the regular TV guidelines of the first episode of a season always being episode 1.

Then please do that for god sake. Clearly the other mods and Travis would take an interest in this very long derisive thread that pretty objectively proves your userbase is unhappy with your current insufficient guidelines and need to have certain aspects of episode ordering rethought.

In all of the reports where this issue comes up, I've asked this same question and, so far, either no one has suggested anything or what they've suggested breaks the regular TV guidelines of the first episode of a season always being episode 1.

This is so blatantly untrue it completely gives away the fact that don't give a shit about this lol. You have had numerous people give cogent suggestions, like this and this. They are at the very least representative of the faults with the current guidelines that clearly demonstrate where the issues with them lie, as there are other affected series on this site that these can apply to. You're just using the fact that you told people "but the guidelines" to dismiss actual suggestions that have been given. Your argument is literally "the guidelines can't change but they can change but you have to give me suggestions but those suggestions break the guidelines so they don't count." This issue can be resolved, but you're being intentionally obtuse and willfully dishonest. If you and the other mods put your heads together I'm sure some resolution can be found.

Because I can't just change it. Other mods and Travis need to be consulted with so a consensus of what should be changed and what it should be changed with is reached.

Consult them.

In all of the reports where this issue comes up, I've asked this same question and, so far, either no one has suggested anything or what they've suggested breaks the regular TV guidelines of the first episode of a season always being episode 1.

Yes we have, you guys are just plugging your ears and going LALALALA cause you don't want to listen. Listen.

List is as S02E01. It's listing as Episode #13 on the website is pretty obviously an overall series numbering. Every Episode #1 is a larger Overall Episode #.

@Flyentologist said:

This is so blatantly untrue it completely gives away the fact that don't give a shit about this lol. You have had numerous people give cogent suggestions, like this and this.

I think the issue with the first suggestion is it may read more like someone giving a suggestion on what should be done about a specific anime, rather than a suggestion on how the rules should be changed for all tv series. From my understanding is this what is the implied suggestion for a new rule?

"Episode and season numbers should reflect the way that the episodes were originally ordered on the original networks website. With the season numbers taking priority over the episode numbers. For example the first episode of season X should be an episode labelled as Season X, Episode 1 or if there is no episode labelled as Episode 1, it should be the episode with the lowest number that is also labelled Season X. So for example if the episode with the lowest episode number of Season X is Episode 4 that should be numbered as Episode 1 of Season X. Or if the lowest is Episode 99, then that should be numbered as Episode 1 as season numbering should be prioritised over episode numbering".

(X is a variable you can insert any number into, ie. Season 1, Season 2, Season 9, etc.)

I know my wording is probably dogwater but would that be the kind of rule change we want? Or is that not it?

The second link you provided I cant quite following what the suggestion is/whats being said so I cant comment on it. Im not sure there is a suggestion in there or if its mostly just explaining their issues with the current rules. If someone can explain what the suggestion contained in that comment is then that would be good for me haha.

@softpillow said:

@Flyentologist said:

This is so blatantly untrue it completely gives away the fact that don't give a shit about this lol. You have had numerous people give cogent suggestions, like this and this.

I think the issue with the first suggestion is it may read more like someone giving a suggestion on what should be done about a specific anime, rather than a suggestion on how the rules should be changed for all tv series. From my understanding is this what is the implied suggestion for a new rule?

"Episode and season numbers should reflect the way that the episodes were originally ordered on the original networks website. With the season numbers taking priority over the episode numbers. For example the first episode of season X should be an episode labelled as Season X, Episode 1 or if there is no episode labelled as Episode 1, it should be the episode with the lowest number that is also labelled Season X. So for example if the episode with the lowest episode number of Season X is Episode 4 that should be numbered as Episode 1 of Season X. Or if the lowest is Episode 99, then that should be numbered as Episode 1 as season numbering should be prioritised over episode numbering".

(X is a variable you can insert any number into, ie. Season 1, Season 2, Season 9, etc.)

I know my wording is probably dogwater but would that be the kind of rule change we want? Or is that not it?

The second link you provided I cant quite following what the suggestion is/whats being said so I cant comment on it. Im not sure there is a suggestion in there or if its mostly just explaining their issues with the current rules. If someone can explain what the suggestion contained in that comment is then that would be good for me haha.

I don't know if you can hope or expect for someone to provide a thorough breakdown of every specific TV guidelines policy that needs to be changed and in what way when the core issue is that the rules are so unevenly enforced that I'm not sure that particular sort of suggestion-making can even be done. The suggestions being levied across many comments here is that either all shows be unified by these guidelines or that they need to be reworked by the mod team to allow some degree of nuance. How they're being enforced isn't followed from show to show; which ones are split by arcs and which ones are lumped into a single season seem arbitrary at the present moment.

Are we strictly following guidelines? Then why are One Piece and Hunter x Hunter the way they are? Are we not strictly following guidelines? Then why are Solo Leveling and Jujutsu Kaisen the way they are? We require either consistency or nuance, not a complete rethinking of how the rules work. We know their guidelines allow them to separate Solo Leveling into 2 seasons because they've done it arbitrarily for other anime. That is the issue my man, this can seemingly be resolved without changing the guidelines, and a good reason for why it can't be still hasn't been given other than "the guidelines", which as stated aren't consistently followed to begin with. And I do want to point out that they do get this right sometimes where others don't, like The Big O which TMDB correctly places in 1 season despite having a 3-year gap between season 1 and 2, but should still properly be listed as 1 continuous season.

And not to eschew responsibility but I'd also argue that it is not the userbase's job to rewrite the site's policy for them. Dozens of people have pointed out the issue and made their points, the onus now sits with the mod team.

@Flyentologist said:

It sounds like you hope for someone to provide a thorough breakdown of every specific TV guidelines policy that needs to be changed and in what way, but the issue is that the rules are so unevenly enforced that I'm not sure that particular sort of suggestion-making can even be done. The suggestions being levied across many comments here is that either all shows be unified by these guidelines or that they need to be reworked by the mod team to allow some degree of nuance. How they're being enforced doesn't seem to be followed from show to show and which ones are split by arcs and which ones are lumped into a single season seem arbitrary at the present moment.

The current guideline is basically "Episode numbering and season numbering should reflect how it was shown on the original network's website". So I'm not sure what you mean by "every specific TV guidelines policy". Theres only one thats being talked about, right? It would be very easy to make a suggestion to change it. If you want the mod team to rework the guidelines, but they respond with there isnt a better policy... so instead could you provide a suggestion, you should be able to come up with a suggestion?

Are we strictly following guidelines? Then why are One Piece and Hunter x Hunter the way they are? Are we not strictly following guidelines? Then why is Solo Leveling the way it is? The mods can't or won't answer this.

This has been answered literally hundreds of times either on this thread or the many other threads about similar situations for other tv shows. The answer is databases are hard work. This is a database run by volunteers (both any user that creates an account and mods who are also volunteer users). Theres lots of information to add and to fix and to remove and more and more of this is needed every single day as more and more movies and shows are released and more and more users add incorrect or bad information/images. Some situations havent been fixed as there are plans to fix them and some havent been fixed because they have not been brought attentino to the mods. Now you may choose to believe that that is an honest response or not but regardless the rule is clear and simple, so if you want the situation with this anime to change yes, there has to be a new rethinking of the rules.

Even if its "nuance" you want, you have to make the suggestion on how you think that should be achieved- i.e. describe the rule that you want that would allow nuance. And how you think it should be achieved with a specific rule.

I'd also argue that it is not the userbase's job to rewrite the site's policy for them. Dozens upon dozens of people have pointed out the issue and made their points, the onus now sits with the mod team.

Well no the mods seemingly havent been able to come up with a new policy. They are volunteers just like you. So why cant the non-mod volunteers come up with something? If the mods cant come up with a solution then yeah the non-mods should suggestion one?? LOL what?

So why cant the non-mod volunteers come up with something?

we're trying. we shouldn't have to be, but we're trying. they don't care to listen. I've yet to see one mod join this discussion in good faith hoping to come to a solution. Instead it's just increasingly contradictory justifications for not doing anything.

softpillow my dude, I don't know what part you're not understanding that guidelines are unevenly enforced regardless of any suggestions anyone makes. I repeat the same part of my last comment: Are we strictly following guidelines? Then why are One Piece and Hunter x Hunter the way they are? Are we not strictly following guidelines? Then why are Solo Leveling and Jujutsu Kaisen the way they are? We require either consistency or nuance, not a complete rethinking of how the rules work. We know their guidelines allow them to separate Solo Leveling into 2 seasons because they've done it arbitrarily for other anime. If databases are hard work, why are we looking for suggestions on how to make broad changes to the entire database and not correct the handful that are blatantly not following those same guidelines? They've successfully merged and split seasons for other series. What exactly is this impossible barrier imposed on this particular series?

Well no the mods seemingly havent been able to come up with a new policy.

I know they haven't, it would be great if they either did or found a way to enforce them equally.

They are volunteers just like you.

No, they are volunteers with actual power and responsibility within the context of this website, and we are users.

So why cant the non-mod volunteers come up with something?

We have been, but shouldn't have to. You're outright looking for someone to tell you the specific change that needs to be made, and the issue to be corrected is a lack of consistency.

@Flyentologist said:

softpillow my dude, I don't know what part you're not understanding that guidelines are unevenly enforced regardless of any suggestions anyone makes. I quote the same part of my last comment:

I dont understand what youre not understanding about how a rule being unevenly enforced has got nothing to do with your ability to make a suggestion on a different rule? You know what the rule is. Its written on this site. Its extremely simple. Whats your suggestion? Why is that a complicated thing to understand?

They are volunteers just like you.

No, they are volunteers and we are users.

No the mods and you (and me) are all users and all volunteers. We all volunteer to add information and fix information on this database.

So why cant the non-mod volunteers come up with something?

Because of everything mentioned previously. I get it dude you wanna be a mod too and gotta suck up, but you're starting to be the same kind of willfully obtuse as the mods commenting here and not understanding the issue. You're outright looking for someone to tell you the specific change that needs to be made, and everyone is saying that the issue is a lack of consistency.

No I do not want to be a mod. If you've spent a good amount of time on this site you may have read many threads and comments of me arguing and criticising the site and its rules too. Including arguing with mods too (i.e. I dont care if they like me or not, I dont want to be a mod). But it is annoying reading the back and forth arguments about this over many threads saying the same things over and over again. Also I dont even agree that they are correct with the anime situation with episode numbering. Which is why I made a suggestion on yalls behalf on what the rule change should be! But if you are going to say that the anime situtation is wrong, why dont you make a suggestion on how it should be changed??? Why is that complicated? How come I was able to make a suggestion but you arent?

and everyone is saying that the issue is a lack of consistency.

No that is not what everyone is saying? Are you intentionally lying here? A lot of people are saying the rules should be changed. LOLL

@chrundle said:

So why cant the non-mod volunteers come up with something?

we're trying. we shouldn't have to be, but we're trying. they don't care to listen. I've yet to see one mod join this discussion in good faith hoping to come to a solution. Instead it's just increasingly contradictory justifications for not doing anything.

Also again okay if you're trying, again what the suggestion for the rule change? And also why do you say "We shouldnt have to be"? If you tell someone "hey this is a problem" and they respond "that unfortunately is the best thing to do and I do not know how it would make it better". Then you should respond with "what about this instead"? Why shouldn't you have to come up with something??

What part of "thats the best thing to do and we cant think of something better" is "not in good faith" or "contradictory"?

Come on man if you're gonna keep doing this then please stop making me repeat this same question: Are we strictly following guidelines? Then why are One Piece and Hunter x Hunter the way they are? Are we not strictly following guidelines? Then why are Solo Leveling and Jujutsu Kaisen the way they are? We require either consistency or nuance, not a complete rethinking of how the rules work. We know their guidelines allow them to separate Solo Leveling into 2 seasons because they've done it arbitrarily for other anime. If databases are hard work, why are we looking for suggestions on how to make broad changes to the entire database and not correct the handful that are blatantly not following those same guidelines? They've successfully merged and split seasons for other series. What exactly is this impossible barrier imposed on this particular series?

Can you actually answer that? It's fine if you can't, I don't expect you to because you're not a mod in a position to be able to answer that question. You are being so weird and trying so hard to force this to be about changing the rules when it's pretty abundantly clear that that is not the required or only possible way to resolve this issue. You writhing over there about how nobody's giving you suggestions on what policy to change looks insane right now. If the mods need inspiration for ideas, they can look to how other metadata sites have gone about this to better success.

What part of "thats the best thing to do and we cant think of something better" is "not in good faith"

The part where that's pretty demonstrably not true based on how they've successfully corrected incorrect episode ordering for other series. I've seen them merge seasons. I've seen them adjust episode ordering. This database is not write-only.

In conclusion, because I can't keep going in circles about this, there is both a distinct lack of consistent enforcement of guidelines and a differing episode ordering that is unique to TMDB due to the way they've specifically chosen to order anime per those guidelines. Enough users have now pointed out the problem with those guidelines and the metadata issues they create. Suggestions have been made to unify the inconsistent enforcement of guidelines. Suggestions have been made on how best to format such instances of series like this where sometimes these cases do require nuance, and understandably cannot be evenly enforced, of which this series is one example as well as Jujutsu Kaisen, both being ordered wrong by nearly all intuitive reasoning. The mods seem to waver somewhere between they won't and they can't fix this, but whatever the case is between those, whether these changes are actually very difficult to implement or not, the mods simply need to acknowledge their users are lamenting about this and have some form of a conversation about what can be done to bring TMDB's metadata more in line with the other APIs. Whether that is broad sweeping changes that the mods said would be required, or a careful case-by-case consideration that would produce better results but require more effort, that's not our job to figure out, you can make it yours if you want because I understand you're trying to be helpful here, but again the onus of resolving this ultimately lies with the people who run this site and set those guidelines.

@Flyentologist said:

If databases are hard work, why are we looking for suggestions on how to make broad changes to the entire database and not correct the handful that are blatantly not following those same guidelines? They've successfully merged and split seasons for other series. What exactly is this impossible barrier imposed on this particular series?

They haven't corrected the handful because databases are hard work. making broad changes is something you or the users on this thread are suggesting, not the mods. So if you are suggesting it why are you pretending its the mods that want the rules to change??

@Flyentologist said:

Can you answer or at least pretend you've read any of the above?

I already responded to the first part of that. But Ill just copy and paste it again to make sure youve read it:

"This has been answered literally hundreds of times either on this thread or the many other threads about similar situations for other tv shows. The answer is databases are hard work. This is a database run by volunteers (both any user that creates an account and mods who are also volunteer users). Theres lots of information to add and to fix and to remove and more and more of this is needed every single day as more and more movies and shows are released and more and more users add incorrect or bad information/images. Some situations havent been fixed as there are plans to fix them and some havent been fixed because they have not been brought attentino to the mods. Now you may choose to believe that that is an honest response or not but regardless the rule is clear and simple, so if you want the situation with this anime to change yes, there has to be a new rethinking of the rules."

You are being so weird and trying so hard to force this to be about changing the rules when it's pretty abundantly clear that that is not the required or only possible way to resolve this issue. You writhing over there about how nobody's giving you suggestions on what policy to change looks insane right now.

How else do you fix this issue other than changing the rules?? If you just decide to make this anime break the rules then thats just going to create even more confusion and more arguing? Because people will ask why another exception was made for this anime but not for other shows. Yes, ideally all the series should be fixed according to the rule. Which is one of the first things I said on this thread. But again, if you are okay with the rule, then i guess you just have to wait for everything else to be fixed that isnt fixed already. But lets be honest most people complaining here are not happy with the rule and do want it to be changed, at least thats my understanding. And so if you want it to be changed what and how do you want it changed??

What else did you want me to respond to in that paragraph you said I didnt read?

There is nothing to change here.

You can make them appear as you want for you by using episode groups.

@superboy97 said:

There is nothing to change here.

You can make them appear as you want for you by using episode groups.

Neither Plex nor Jellyfin presently supports episode groups unfortunately.