@DRDMovieMusings said:

But would you, really? Obviously, I'm not the only one who noticed you beating this drum repeatedly right here within this one thread.

Because it happens so often and it hurts the movie. When I was a kid I noticed the black dude always died first in horror movies, I didn't get accused of hating white survivors. That only changed because people kept pointing it out, and still it took decades.

In Hollywood's overcorrection to seem less sexist they have basically made it law that women have to be invincible and can never need help, especially not from a man, and the easiest way to make the women look better is to dumb down the men. It's boring and it deprives the female characters of any kind of growth because they never have to learn anything, they just know it automatically and master their skills without training or help (this happens in Hocus Pocus 2 btw).

@DRDMovieMusings said:

If we noticed you calling out the damsel in distress trope or the older leading man with the 20 something wife trope with the same persistence, you might have a hook upon which to hang this hat.

My opinion on that is, does it work for the story? Garfield Spiderman saved damsel Zendaya in No Way Home and everyone loved it. There are plenty of handsome older men women would through their vagina at. If we're talking Anthony Hopkins with Eleven from Stranger Things then no, that's stupid, unless he's playing Hugh Hefner or something.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I'd like to say "I hear you" on this...but, I'm not a fan of false equivalence. These conversations cannot pretend there is no wider context of power structure, or that that power structure is not the bigger issue with respect to who decides how any group is portrayed, or how groups of people are enfranchised or disenfranchised based on that power structure.

Who has the "power" in this context? If it's men then why would they voluntarily make products where men are always the idiots, rapists, villains, abusers etc, and most of which don't even make money? People didn't even like this Hocus Pocus 2 movie it seems. Was it because it had women in it (ignoring the first one had women in it), or was it because it was badly written? A symptom of which being the badly written male and female characters? The women were not well written but they weren't written as retarded so it didn't stand out as much.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

It's not a one-to-one issue of "if this is bad, that is bad" because the "this and that" in this conversation have different stakes in the power structure. And that power structure still disproportionately give advantage to men and disadvantage to women.

If we were talking about 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago, I'd agree. The culture has shifted. Instead of writing men as strong and masculine heroes and women as feminine hangers on, they've basically just swapped the roles around. Now women are the masculine heroes, but unlike their male counterparts they can't be hurt or fail or need to train/learn (especially not from a dude) which makes them unrelatable and dull, and the men are weak idiots which women aren't attracted to but men seem to tolerate.

And worst of all, these movies almost always suck. If they didn't suck I probably wouldn't notice it as much.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Of all the problems men have, nothing here is near the top of any meaningful list. "Being too much of a pussy", not having "big balls and testosterone" are not our problem and, if that's the angle from which you're approaching it, you are part of the problem, and clearly have some learning to do before you're informed sufficiently to engage this kind of conversation constructively.

So whose problem is it? It's 100% men's responsibility, no one else's. If you're a man and you're took weak to stand up for yourself or your beliefs then what good are you?

There is a saying I'm sure you've heard it: Weak men create hard times, hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men. We are in the "weak men create hard times" part of that saying. I've done my research. You may want to look up the fall of Rome or any once great civilization. Societies don't collapse because strong men were in charge of them.

@cswood said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

Of all the problems men have, nothing here is near the top of any meaningful list. "Being too much of a pussy", not having "big balls and testosterone" are not our problem and, if that's the angle from which you're approaching it, you are part of the problem, and clearly have some learning to do before you're informed sufficiently to engage this kind of conversation constructively.

So whose problem is it? It's 100% men's responsibility, no one else's. If you're a man and you're took weak to stand up for yourself or your beliefs then what good are you?

There is a saying I'm sure you've heard it: Weak men create hard times, hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men. We are in the "weak men create hard times" part of that saying. I've done my research. You may want to look up the fall of Rome or any once great civilization. Societies don't collapse because strong men were in charge of them.

Egad.

@acontributor said:

@rooprect said:

Good luck to all you incels or whatever you call yourselves.

The word incel is a hateful slur when used as an insult thrown at others. The fact that you used that is proof that you're a misandrist.

Please tell us what calling people "too much of a pussy" is proof of...??

@acontributor said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@acontributor said:

@rooprect said:

Good luck to all you incels or whatever you call yourselves.

The word incel is a hateful slur when used as an insult thrown at others. The fact that you used that is proof that you're a misandrist.

Please tell us what calling people "too much of a pussy" is proof of...??

Pussy is this context means house cat. If you call a man a pussy that's just evidence of misandry not misogyny if that's what you're saying.

It's not about what I'm saying, and that's not the context in which the user used it.

You called out one person for using the term "incel" but didn't also call out another person for using the term "pussy", so, if anything, I'm asking YOU why you're only policing some slurs while giving others a pass?

@acontributor said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

You called out one person for using the term "incel" but didn't also call out another person for using the term "pussy", so, if anything, I'm asking YOU why you're only policing some slurs while giving others a pass?

I guess because he was using it to mean someone who is just a pushover. I don't really think the way he used it is exactly hateful.

It would appear to me that you're giving him the benefit of the doubt because you generally side with him in this argument. In most wider circles, however, I'm very willing to bet that calling a man a "pussy" will be (rightly) recognized as far more inappropriate (not to mention vulgar) than a term like "incel" which has shown up in discourse with respect to frustrated entitled men who lash out and murder women randomly (see Ecole Polytechnique Massacre or Toronto Van attack).

But at some point I do think that calling men words like that is hateful just like calling them incel. Actually I've noticed a lot of people who supposedly stand up for men will backhandedly call them names like betas and cucks. I am tired of that.

We agree on something.

@cswood said:

@rooprect said:

Just curious, why do you feel threatened by women?

I think that's your internal misandry being projected. If this were a movie where all the men were written normally and all the women were morons I'd be saying the exact same thing, but if a woman pointed that out she would not be accused of being "threatened" by men because shaming women is wrong while we all know shaming men for pointing out objective reality works. At least it used to.

The same way women don't like seeing oversexualized female characters, I do not like the "idiot dad" stereotype we see in sitcoms where husbands or men in general are bumbling idiots who can't tie their own shoes while women are the only rational ones who are always right. It's detrimental to the notion of equality people you claim to support and it conditions boys and young impressionable men into thinking it's acceptable to portray men as morons while the reverse is automatic misogyny.

Either you're for misandry or you're for equality, you can't be for both.

I need to make a comment about the bolded statement. This isn't exactly new, this has been going on for a long time in different types of media. Watch/listen to early movies, TV shows, radio, etc.

@bratface said:

@cswood said:

@rooprect said:

Just curious, why do you feel threatened by women?

I think that's your internal misandry being projected. If this were a movie where all the men were written normally and all the women were morons I'd be saying the exact same thing, but if a woman pointed that out she would not be accused of being "threatened" by men because shaming women is wrong while we all know shaming men for pointing out objective reality works. At least it used to.

The same way women don't like seeing oversexualized female characters, I do not like the "idiot dad" stereotype we see in sitcoms where husbands or men in general are bumbling idiots who can't tie their own shoes while women are the only rational ones who are always right. It's detrimental to the notion of equality people you claim to support and it conditions boys and young impressionable men into thinking it's acceptable to portray men as morons while the reverse is automatic misogyny.

Either you're for misandry or you're for equality, you can't be for both.

I need to make a comment about the bolded statement. This isn't exactly new, this has been going on for a long time in different types of media. Watch/listen to early movies, TV shows, radio, etc.

I agree, I don't like the "idiot dad who can't tie his shoes while the woman is the only rational one who's always right" either. I hate movies where the man is the one who must go through a character arc learning experience while everyone around him is just fine (think Liar, Liar). I also hate the "man must save/overcome the world - literally - to be worthy of his family" thing, too (think 2012). No doubt, men get crappy depictions, and I'm very capable of seeing it and calling it out.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@bratface said:

@cswood said:

@rooprect said:

Just curious, why do you feel threatened by women?

I think that's your internal misandry being projected. If this were a movie where all the men were written normally and all the women were morons I'd be saying the exact same thing, but if a woman pointed that out she would not be accused of being "threatened" by men because shaming women is wrong while we all know shaming men for pointing out objective reality works. At least it used to.

The same way women don't like seeing oversexualized female characters, I do not like the "idiot dad" stereotype we see in sitcoms where husbands or men in general are bumbling idiots who can't tie their own shoes while women are the only rational ones who are always right. It's detrimental to the notion of equality people you claim to support and it conditions boys and young impressionable men into thinking it's acceptable to portray men as morons while the reverse is automatic misogyny.

Either you're for misandry or you're for equality, you can't be for both.

I need to make a comment about the bolded statement. This isn't exactly new, this has been going on for a long time in different types of media. Watch/listen to early movies, TV shows, radio, etc.

I agree, I don't like the "idiot dad who can't tie his shoes while the woman is the only rational one who's always right" either. I hate movies where the man is the one who must go through a character arc learning experience while everyone around him is just fine (think Liar, Liar). I also hate the "man must save/overcome the world - literally - to be worthy of his family" thing, too (think 2012). No doubt, men get crappy depictions, and I'm very capable of seeing it and calling it out.

I think you misunderstood my comment? I don't mind the 'bumbling' male trope, I was just pointing out that it isn't new (or a 'woke' thing).

@bratface said:

@DRDMovieMusings said:

@bratface said:

@cswood said:

@rooprect said:

Just curious, why do you feel threatened by women?

I think that's your internal misandry being projected. If this were a movie where all the men were written normally and all the women were morons I'd be saying the exact same thing, but if a woman pointed that out she would not be accused of being "threatened" by men because shaming women is wrong while we all know shaming men for pointing out objective reality works. At least it used to.

The same way women don't like seeing oversexualized female characters, I do not like the "idiot dad" stereotype we see in sitcoms where husbands or men in general are bumbling idiots who can't tie their own shoes while women are the only rational ones who are always right. It's detrimental to the notion of equality people you claim to support and it conditions boys and young impressionable men into thinking it's acceptable to portray men as morons while the reverse is automatic misogyny.

Either you're for misandry or you're for equality, you can't be for both.

I need to make a comment about the bolded statement. This isn't exactly new, this has been going on for a long time in different types of media. Watch/listen to early movies, TV shows, radio, etc.

I agree, I don't like the "idiot dad who can't tie his shoes while the woman is the only rational one who's always right" either. I hate movies where the man is the one who must go through a character arc learning experience while everyone around him is just fine (think Liar, Liar). I also hate the "man must save/overcome the world - literally - to be worthy of his family" thing, too (think 2012). No doubt, men get crappy depictions, and I'm very capable of seeing it and calling it out.

I think you misunderstood my comment? I don't mind the 'bumbling' male trope, I was just pointing out that it isn't new (or a 'woke' thing).

My apologies if my reply distracted from what you were saying. I agree, it's not a woke thing.

I also wanted to add that it's not as though I'm blind to the stereotype, in case those on the other side of the argument think I'm incapable of or unwilling to recognize it. I am; it's just that, in the grand scheme of things, it's a diversion to blow it out of proportion vs. bigger fish that need frying.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I also wanted to add that it's not as though I'm blind to the stereotype, in case those on the other side of the argument think I'm incapable of or unwilling to recognize it. I am; it's just that, in the grand scheme of things, it's a diversion to blow it out of proportion vs. bigger fish that need frying.

But what are the bigger fish that need to be fried that haven't already been fried? I say this as someone who was very much a "crusader" in my teens and early 20s. I crusaded for more women getting leading roles specifically in action films, more gay roles, more roles for black people like me and I watched thousands of foreign films to experience non-American cinema. And in the last 20 years we got all that stuff (though I'm still not happy with the portrayal of black men, but that's another story).

But movies need reliable villains, and the only acceptable group that can be villains or that you can demonize or make fun of without getting backlash, are straight men. Specifically white men, but it usually extends to men in general, ie "incels", which is just code for all men. I haven't seen Don't Worry Darling but I know one of the handsome dudes in that movie plays an incel... while being married to a good looking woman. "Incel" is a nonsense word that just means "bad men" regardless if they get laid or not.

And this is during a time where men are killing themselves at higher rates and being made fun of for being divorced or not being able to get laid, or lacking the skills that would help them to find a woman who will love them. Those guys are the new reliable villains, and trying to help them or speaking up for them means you're one of them. Imagine if we demonized single lonely women who couldn't find a husband or who hated men for not sleeping with them, that would be misogyny. Or rather, the men would be portrayed as the real villains for not accepting women like that. Women can't be villains anymore, not unless a woman is also the hero.

But I've known guys who killed themselves or thought about it after their wife left them or their kids were taken from them or because they couldn't find a girlfriend. Those guys are the new Hollywood villains now. Meanwhile a 22 year old woman recently held her tinder date at knife point and threatened to kill him before raping him. That movie would never be made unless the roles were reversed. I understand there are bad men out there, but there needs to be a little more balance and a little less blatant on-the-nose man hating. It's already become an overused cliche.

@cswood said:

"incels", which is just code for all men.

No, it's not. It's easy to argue against a strawman, but that's a diversion. This is not about "all men." Stop that.

"Incel" is a nonsense word that just means "bad men" regardless if they get laid or not.

No, it doesn't. Again, you're arguing a point that is not a point. This tactic does not contribute to meaningful discourse.

Meanwhile a 22 year old woman recently held her tinder date at knife point and threatened to kill him before raping him.

Yep, stuff happens. But do you honestly think a situation like this is the norm, or just the exception?

I understand there are bad men out there,

Yes, and are they the norm, or the exception? And, hey, it is absolutely okay to question causes of why. The fact itself does require better understanding.

but there needs to be a little more balance and a little less blatant on-the-nose man hating. It's already become an overused cliche.

Perhaps. But we live in a society largely formed by men to suit men. Carving out space for others only feels oppressive to those who've enjoyed the benefits of oppressing and the luxury of taking up more space than that to which they were entitled. Of all the people types looking for "more balance" and less on the nose hating, seriously, men in general - and white men specifically - have less to complain about than anyone else, but ought to be able to empathize with all those others who've had to put up with their control of overused stereotypes for far longer than they experience today.

@cswood said:

"Incel" is a nonsense word that just means "bad men" regardless if they get laid or not.

I've already provided links to two mass murders that occurred by incels. You've added no comment.

Here's a mass murder that was prevented from being executed, and the perp "self-identifies" as an incel.

So, YOU may want to deny the validity of the term incel, and all it encompasses, or strawman it to avoid it, but there are real people out there identifying and acting out of that identification, and to deny it puts women's lives in danger. If you want any credibility in any serious discussions, you can't dismiss these realities, bury your head in the sand and then cry when others don't join you under there.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

I've already provided links to two mass murders that occurred by incels. You've added no comment.

Here's a mass murder that was prevented from being executed, and the perp "self-identifies" as an incel.

Yeah, it's trendy now. A lot of these idiots are looking to get attention and notoriety. Back when the Manson family committed their murders they said the devil sent them because Satanic Panic was in style. It makes headlines. If incel was a thing when Timothy McVeigh or Jeffery Dahmer committed their crimes they'd be branded with that label too.

Meanwhile, notice how any non-white guy who commits murders is branded an incel, because that word isn't attributed to non-white men. If a black guy or Muslim guy stabs people on a subway or something they're not incels. Hell, even the incels depicted in movies are exclusively white men. There all colors and races of guys who aren't getting laid these days, but only one particular group are called incels and that's how the media wants it.

@DRDMovieMusings said:

So, YOU may want to deny the validity of the term incel, and all it encompasses, or strawman

Because it is. Exception doesn't make the rule. Just because a couple of morons did bad things while calling themselves an incel doesn't mean that word isn't overused and applied as a slur to any man who disagrees with or questions the establishment. Do you think more people are being killed by incels or by gang members? Gang members, obviously, but incel violence gets more clicks than gang violence, so that's what makes headlines more often.

And as I said, married men with children are called incels, often people who are perceived to be right wing. Just you wait and see, once incel is no longer popular and a new word pops up to replace it, that will be the word all the people who would have been called incels will be called, and all single white male criminals will be branded with that new word for clicks. That's how the media works.