CANON is a part of LITERARY THEORY and how HERMENUETICS (the ART of INTERPRETATION) is also a way to approach and deal with the CLAIM that something VIOLATES what someone sees as being CANON.

When one deals with stories and characters hermenuetics may apply but when we see technology that wasn't invented yet and was not going to be invented for a long time it is a canon violation,when events are shown that were never mentioned before or contradict what has been established for that period it contradicts canon.When certain species act and behave contrary to what was established before and what came after the period it is a violation of canon,simple it has nothing to do with expectations.

And SPOCK and PIKE didn't SHOW UP until AFTER some FANS of the show began to COMPLAIN about the show, which you also claim leads to people who worked on the show being FIRED and REPLACED by others who apparently were attempting to try to FIX the CANON VIOLATIONS that were complained about.

But didn't you also claim CBS FIRED the writers for the FIRST SEASON to make room for NEW ONES who would address the CANON ISSUE???

That together with Sarek/Amanda,Thalos IV ,the banning of holographic communications,limiting the use of the Spore drive ,The Red Angel,the fleshing out of the relationship Spock-Michael and Control were part the things the new showrunners introduced in season 2 to repair the damage dome by the previous team.

This CLAIM also appears to be related to something else that GOOFY person makes in that LINK you provided where they can't stay FOCUSED upon what they're saying and keep talking about other shows and FILMS.

But NOTE the way they also KEEP TALKING about OTHER DISCO CHARACTERS even MORE than they talk about MICHAEL herself (who is also suppose to be the MAIN FOCUS of what they say). So in essence, what that LINK provides is PROOF that the REST of the other DISCO CHARACTERS have just as much SCREEN TIME and IMPORTANCE in the SHOW as MICHAEL does, which also DISPROVES the claim that she's the MAIN FOCUS of the show.

The writer is trying to illustrate things by giving examples from other series and movies to explain his points.

He talks about them in order to explain his argument about brief characterization using the other crew members as examples to illustrate something similar that was shown in the Mr. Plinkett Star Wars Prequels reviews from Red letter Media they gave this to illustrate that part of the problem with the prequels was the memorability(or better lack of) of the main characters by having friends and family give brief characterizations without mentioning what the author wrote they could use to characterize them.the writer then uses the same method to illustrate the problem with Burnham as the main protagonist.What these characterizations also show is that the author can better characterize the other characters on the show than he can do with Burnham.He also tries to explain that despite the criticism Burnham is not a Mary Sue and even goes so far as to say that Kirk and Picard were more Marty Sue than Burham is Mary Sue.

As for the DIFFERENT LOOKING KLINGONS, couldn't that also be because when the STORY begins we keep hearing about how ALMOST NO ONE has seen them for 100 YEARS??? And we also KNOW that GENETIC MANIPULATION has been taking place (due to the way TYLER was ALTERED)??? And the FIRST thing we ENCOUNTERED was a KLINGON SHIP that probably also TRAVELS through TIME (due to the way MICHAEL also reports back about how it has the BIO MASS of BONES that were SEVERAL centuries old PLUS the bodies of more recent KLINGONS)???

The genetic modification was the explanation why the Klingons from TOS looked so different from the ones that came after The Motion Picture.The story in a nutshell the Klingon had heard about the discovery of Dr. Soong (a forefather of Data's inventor)and his superhuman "The Augments". The Klingons stole the genetic material in order to create super Klingons which went terribly wrong a virus manifested itself killing the Klingons of that planet.the klingons then kidnapped dr. Phlox to cure them he did invent a cure but as a result of that cure the human genes of the "Augments DNA " became dominant hence why the Klingons from TOS look so 'Human" But these klingons don't look like either of the established Klingons in either TOS or from TMP on wards who like DSC take place in the Original Timeline.As a matter of fact they look more like the Klingons that were shown in the second reboot movie (STID) which takes place in the Kelvin timeline.

AND we also know that SHIP JAMMED their RELAY so that they couldn't REPORT back to HEADQUARTERS, and it also had some kind of ADVANCED CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY as well which would also indicate it's got KNOWLEDGE of the FUTURE TIME (which is also later confirmed by the TIME CRYSTALS they have in their POSESSION).

One shouldn't exist at that period of time (the cloacking technique)and the other notat all since it was never mentioned before in anny shape or form and if the Klingons had such crystals don't you think (CONSIDERING KNOWING HOW Klingons of the period are) that they would have used these in their conflict with The Federation?It's one thing to keep advanced technology secret is one thing but if that technologies pushes the balance in your favour you wil use this to it's fullest potential that it can't remain secret for long.Such a thing would have been widely known in he future.

So what's probably happening is the KLINGONS have GENETICALLY MANIPULATED themselves to keep from BEING or looking HUMAN (which could also be a result of BREEDING with HUMANS like B'Elanna did when she had a child with a HUMAN in VOYAGER.

No the Klingons wanted the power of these super human (The Augments) to create super Klingons,them looking more human was an unwanted side effect of the cure.

What does CBS have to do with it??? One moment you're talking about the VIOLATION of CANON on the part of the WRITERS, and now CBS is blamed for that as well???

CBS and the decisions made by CBS are directly responsible for the issues that caused much of the criticism(canon which I tried to illustrate in the previous reply being one of them) ,CBS to a large degree is also responsible for the troubles the franchise now seems to be in and for the rather troubled relationship between a large segment of the Trek fans and the studio.

Again, since one hasn't SEEN these other FILMS that take place in a DIFFERENT TIMELINE one can't address that matter.

See post on other thread

Since I KNOW NOTHING about what goes on during the WRITING and the FILMING of the show, that also doesn't MATTER. What matters for me is the STORY ITSELF and whether or not it's ENTERTAINING or not which imo, IT IS

Yes the series is entertaining(part of the reason I kept watching) whether it is part of the Star Trek franchise is another matter.DSC for me can at times be frustrating to watch because there are some genuine good things and ideas in the show but then they come up with other things or other ideas and one thinks Mêh!

And The MAIN PROBLEM for ME, is the STREAMING ISSUE, where one is CONSTANTLY THROWN OFF LINE all of the TIME when one tries watching it which is what RUINS watcing it for ME.

Again, IMO, the BIGGEST PROBLEM is the STREAMING ISSUE. Because I don't CARE about the WAY CANON is VIOLATED as long as the story is ENTERTAINING enough, which IMO, IT IS.

Since I have no such problems I cannot judge fairly but the concept of and the quality of CBS All Access is also one of the complaints about DSC

NO. Since you haven't even SEEN the show yet, the MISTAKE is on YOUR PART. Because your COMPLAINT is also only based upon seeing a FEW SECONDS of a couple of PREVIEW CLIPS (which apparently are also suppose to TAKE PLACE in another DIFFERENT TIME LINE). So this TIME you also CAN'T COMPLAIN about CANON being VIOLATED

No it is not the canon here but the fact that CBS and the showrunners of these series seem to have a knack of putting things together in a show that according to the laws of physics cannot /should exist together (Burnham Being from the Original Timeline Picard from the Kelvin Timeline) or that the Kelvin Timeline iterations of 7 0f 9 ,Data or B4( depending on what explanation they try to give) & the Borg should look exactly the same or (this is still conjecture) have gone through the same experiences as their Original Timeline counterparts.As a result of these decisions the writers now have to come up with a KT history for Picard,7 of 9,Data/B4 the Borg and how to get Burnham into contact with Picard despite them existing in entirely different timelines.

_ A PARALLEL UNIVERSE is something that SPLITS OFF from another ONE and then continues on to create it's OWN STORY that ends up being DIFFERENT from the other one._

Well since time travel isn't possible and we therefore can't check let's keep things simple by taking the Back To The Future view on such matters .The off splitting starts when a thing happens or an action is taken that in the original time line wouldn't have happened or isn't taken .For example if in one reality one goes to a street on your left while in the other to right each timeline there after is a different time line because of the effects of the decision that was made and the things that happens because of that decision(for example to left you meet a good friend who offers you to go for a drink and continuing on the things that happen after and because of that(the timeline could spilt again there in a scenario where one is not going for a drink and gets home or one where you go for a drink and get wasted) If you had gone to the right you would have run a couple of thugs who rob you of your values and stab a knife in your heart that you die and everything resulting from that)So you see even the slightest thing can influence a timeline that after the rather large and dramatic things that were changed in the Kelvin Timeline one finds it hard to believe that KT Picard,7 of 9,Data/B4 and even the Borg would have gone through exactly the same experiences as their Original timeline counterparts.It also illustrates how almost impossible it would be for Burnham the find Picard from another timeline and the Kelvin Timeline specific.

Since we see the BODY PARTS of DATA being kept inside of the DRAWERS PICARD OPENS UP, one would also assume that's still the SAME DATA that was BLOWN UP, and that PICARD found someone who could PUT HIM BACK TOGETHER AGAIN.

If it was OT Picard the parts were likely from B4 Data was blown into a thousand bits when the Scimitar exploded at the end of Nemesis together with Picard clone Shinzon. With KT Picard we don't know yet whose body parts they are could be Data could be B4.

I find other characters like PIKE and SARU to be much more INTERESTING and APPEALING.

I agree I find Pike ,Saru and also Empress Georgiou the most interesting and engaging characters of the show.And since season 2 I also like Tilly and the grumpy female technician.

But EVEN SO, we also KNOW one can also CHANGE the ROAD one's on before it's TOO LATE thanks to stories like THE CHRISTMAS CAROL where the GHOST of the FUTURE TIME visits SCROOGE and WARNS him about the PATH he's on so he can CHANGE his WAYS before the DEATH of TINY TIM takes place.

So Mamma Burnham is the ghost from Christmas past and future? But in order to change things one has to have the ability to go back to the events that led to the alteration a trillion split offs before in order to change them back again

@M. LeMarchand Being a KID probably helps to endure it.

Or copious amounts of alcohol and joints

@M. LeMarchand Others seem to think that pretty much everything is awful. Give them a go. I thought the first was a clever way to reboot but still keep ties with existing continuity. The second would've been fine if they hadn't denied who the antagonist was (if you missed the fuss, don't search and you may enjoy the film more) and the third was OK, if forgettable.

I agree with you on STID they should have stuck with the character Harrison and should have kept khan as far as possible from that story up to the point that Khan was revealed it was turning into a good Trek movie untill that moment when everything after is kinda spoiled plus I think Admiral Marcus was a solid antagonist Khan was not needed at all.

@M. LeMarchand It seems that wherever a new Trek show is set - Prime, Kelvin or a potentially new timeline - people are going to complain.

• Prime: Canon, tech.
• Kelvin: We hate J J Abrams!
• New: Why isn't it in the Prime Universe?

I thought Picard was set in the Prime Universe, anyway.

I am not complaining about the timelines they pick I commented on the rather poor choice of timelines for the shows the showrunners set them considering what the idea for these shows were in making something entirely different. And also putting things within that timeline that are from another period of time from that timeline or from other timelines altogether that the writers now have to find their way around in explaining them.I just showed how they could have made their work far easier and without having to deal with al the criticism these decision caused.

@Nexus71 said:

I am not complaining about the timelines they pick I commented on the rather poor choice of timelines for the shows the showrunners set them considering what the idea for these shows were in making something entirely different. And also putting things within that timeline that are from another period of time from that timeline or from other timelines altogether that the writers now have to find their way around in explaining them.I just showed how they could have made their work far easier and without having to deal with al the criticism these decision caused.

My comment wasn't particularly aimed at you, but at the type of fans who will find fault in everything.

@Invidia : Did you manage to try "The Magicians"?

Sorry Philippe

@Invidia said:

Did you manage to try "The Magicians"?

Not yet PHIL …

the SCI FI CHANNEL won't air it until JULY 31st.

That's still 6 DAYS from now.

Ooops! Must be because it's the school holidays; I felt like we were already in August.

Maybe it's the heat we had a record breaking 39,3 degrees Celsius yesterday and today it is going to be even hotter.Why go on holiday when one gets temperatures like that at home plus one hasn't have to watch out for restaurants(in Greece) charging you €30 for a(ordinary) beer when one can buy a 0,5 ltr. of some lovely refreshing white beer for only € 0.69 at the local supermarket .

Today they had another record 40,2 degrees Celsius the first time temperatures here in the Netherlands recorded temperatures of 40 and over and it will remain round 30 degrees until around 2 am (yippie not)looks like it's going to look like another warm and sweaty might.Well predictions that tomorrow will be another hot day around 35-36 degrees in the weekend things cool down

No one hasn't got AC but one has a vertical ventilator that usually does the trick and one has white aluminum blinds.AC in this climate is a bit too much for these 4-5 days that temperatures exceed 30 degrees here.

@mechajutaro said:

Its looks like bad fan fiction.

Has anyone here among us read any fan fiction that qualities as serviceable, much less superb?

Not me, but it's not something I tend to read. However millions of (mainly) women have read the 50 Shades books which were originally Twilight FF.

Not me, but it's not something I tend to read. However millions of (mainly) women have read the 50 Shades books which were originally Twilight FF.

You got me there Philippe ,how on Earth those books and movies become so popular is a mystery to me but if it originally was Twilight(which are an equally set of abysmal movies) FF I assume the vampire stuff and blood drinking was replaced with the BDSM stuff(although people who are actually involved with BDSM say that the books and movies don't have anything to do with BDSM )But I guess there are a lot of sexually frustrated,repressed and neglected housewives out there that get excited about riding a jetski with a wealthy handsome boss with a butt plug up their ass.

@Nexus71 said:

if it originally was Twilight(which are an equally set of abysmal movies) FF I assume the vampire stuff and blood drinking was replaced with the BDSM stuff(although people who are actually involved with BDSM say that the books and movies don't have anything to do with BDSM )But I guess there are a lot of sexually frustrated,repressed and neglected housewives out there that get excited about riding a jetski with a wealthy handsome boss with a butt plug up their ass.

Fairly well documented that's how it started out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Shades_of_Grey#Background_and_publication

Don't want to open a big ol' can o' worms, and can't find a good way to put it, but I find that the popularity of this series amongst women troublesome/confusing.

What I find troublesome/confusing is that how one can become so mushy about the f-in Twilight movies that one writes explicit fan fiction about it .It's not like those movies are a shinny beacon of briljant movie making or top notch acting (certainly with Kirstin "one facial expression"Steward).

@Nygma-0999 said:

Frankly this whole thing just feels like when they dragged Leonard Nimoy into the Jar Jar movies to get more butts into the theater. Overall it dosn't even feel like its in the same universe as the TNG show. And seems like another cliche plot about some girl with something special that needs to be protected for some reason.

When Roddenberry introduced us to TOS in the 60's his vision was to present and perhaps predict a future when the nations of our world had overcome their differences and even founded an interplanetary organization that worked in harmony with other alien beings to battle evil. He succeeded but his characters were ALL flat, the same , perfect. Yes, there was a Russian, an Asian and African on the bridge but they were all clones, including the only true alien Spock, perfect soldiers. TNG gave us a more realistic captain (who stayed on board ship more) and considered morality more but he too was essentially flat and worse, he was surrounded by a perfect, obedient SF crew with hardly a stomach ache between them. Only Data and Worf presented variations from that perfection and even they were treated merely as curiosity for the longest time. None of the characters in the 1st two series GREW, not even the baddies!

In VOY we began to see a move towards REALISM in ST. Janeway was forced to blend a crew of SF perfection with not so perfect people, the Marquee. Her situation forced her to bend her SF rules and so she grew. 7/9, the doctor, Neelix and Kes who shared her journey also forced Janeway to develop a sensibility she did not have in her early dealing with Chakotae. Mulgrew's brilliant portrayal of this conflicted SF captain was ruined by the writers' desire to give VOY a happy ending. DS9 took the quest for realism, differences and nuanced situations further by placing captain Sisko in a situation he didn't want; where he essentially had to share power; and where there were competing and conflicting interests (Cardassian, Bajoran) which he had to bear in mind. Sisko's growth was therefore the greatest of ALL ST captain's from reluctant administrator all the way to reluctant deity. In DS9 we finally saw a panoply of characters which more closely reflects our own panoply of human differences. While Roddenberry wrote about the future ST has always been a reflection of our present. ENT sort to mimic DS9's realism but was doomed by timidity and, what was by then, a cult following of fans who had no idea what ST REALLY MEAN'T, only what THEY wanted it to mean. I mean the fans who were literally trapped in the mindset of TOS and wanted any show set before TOS to have pre TOS notions of society as well.

These same fans reacted similarly to DSC but the gap was even wider by now. The fans failed to see the true growth in ST and insisted that DSC reflect TOS's 1960 earth. How dare women be in charge? Where are the Kirks and Picards? Why show us gays kissing? Where did this tech come from? The uniforms, the Klingons! This, at a time mind you when, generally, viewers sensibilities had matured. When the most popular TV shows and films featured immensely popular anti heroes (Tony Soprano, Walter White, Piper Chapman) or a host of goodie/baddies (Game of Thrones). A time when even the traditional 'Mary Sues' like James Bond, Batman and Spider Man had to be re-invented and re-written to be more, gritty and making mistakes and REAL. It was at this time these fans were hollering for their perfection....a thing I was glad ST had apparently grown out of. I believe that by establishing a FLAWED but gifted heroine, who was also NOT the final word on the ship and surround her with a TRULY DIVERSE crew of FLAWED but gifted people aliens and enemies, DSC is trying to move along that spectrum from FLAT to REAL characters.

So now we are on the cusp of PICARD. Stewart and the show runners have promised us something different. They won't admit that Picard was completely UNREALISTIC in TNG but I trust they know what they are doing and will NOT give us a show where he is another mere puppet master to perfection! I WILL WAIT to see the first season of PIC before I judge it. I will NOT prejudge it however, bringing in all those old characters who have CLEARLY out grown the version of themselves that we recall is kind of like when a pop star stops producing new, original music but keep re-working other people's old hits. Very few people ( Byron Lee perhaps the lone exception ) can get away with that and it is a sure sign you lack originality, but we'll see.